New Article on the Swanson Marginalia in Ripperologist 128

[Fleetwood Mac]

Wrong thread! Many apologies.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Phil,

i understand what you are however, with all due respect, if the police thought kosminski was the Ripper, they themsevles say they could not commit him to trial as the witness would not comply, therefore there was no conviction. Surely they had to keep the investigation open. Who knows what thye were looking for?

Jenni

Clearly they did not have enough on him to get him into a court of law and have him shipped off to Broadmoor.

From this there seems to be a contradiction: Swanson and Anderson were convinced they had their man, but they needed the witness to cement it. It follows that what they actually had on him is a conundrum: enough to be convinced, but not enough to convict.

The only feasible answer that I can come up with is that they thought he was a decent suspect, but no more, when they took him to the ID. But that which the witness saw left no room for doubt; which would rule out Lawende, and leave open the possibility of Schwartz.

[Jenni Shelden]

Hello Sally,

With all respect, seriously, any person expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. Are you seriously trying to tell us that Kosminski, identified suspect, pointed out as the murderer, incarcerated for the rest of his days, is ignored by the rest of the police force, from top to bottom bar two, as they merrily carry on looking for the Whitechapel Murderer..and all the time only Sir Robert Anderson and Donald Swanson know that Kosminski is the Ripper, and carry on the fascade with that singular knowledge inside them? I am sorry but it beggars belief, pushing boundaries of known procedure...all for the sake of a nonentity that means nothing to almost everyone.. and that these two intrepid policemen know the truth the rest of the Metropolitan Police Force, the City Police Force, every politician, journalist and rag, tag and bobtail are in the height of hunger for such knowledge...and the search is going on in broad daylight for Jack the Ripper long, long after Kosminski is put away in a loony bin? And Swanson is STILL part of the hunt?

I say again.. any policeman expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer as DSS does, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. In the absence of another man named Kosminski...the answer is obvious... DSS is simply filling in Anderson's story.

DSS' direct work in the case clearly runs against the incarceration of this Kosminski being the murderer.......Oh..and so does Macnagthen's, and Reids, and Littlechild's, and just about every other policeman involved in the hunt for the Whitechapel Murderer after Kosminski's incarceration.

Please explain to me why, if Swanson and Anderson both knew of the incarceration of Kosminski, ipso facto the "id parade" before it, why the hunt for the Whitechapel murderer continued when a Cheif Inspector and the Assistant Commissioner knew it was a closed case? And ONLY those two....


best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil,

i understand what you are however, with all due respect, if the police thought kosminski was the Ripper, they themsevles say they could not commit him to trial as the witness would not comply, therefore there was no conviction. Surely they had to keep the investigation open. Who knows what thye were looking for?

Jenni

[Fleetwood Mac]

I really don't think there is any contradiction between the two. The family information is simply that "after he had retired in 1903", when some members of his family tried to get the name of DSS's suspect out of him, he refused to tell them. (And for all we know the family members concerned could have been his younger children, who were only teenagers when he retired.) I don't believe that writing it down for his own use, perhaps years later, would be inconsistent with that.

And after all, the idea that there's an inconsistency comes from some people's interpretations of something Jim Swanson said. But if there's one thing that's absolutely clear, it's that Jim Swanson believed that 'Kosminski' was DSS's chosen suspect. So Jim Swanson himself saw no inconsistency in DSS writing down the name of his suspect.

Well there's one thing: the family could have beefed it up by saying they told him it was Kosminski.

My personal view is that Swanson's Marganalia is unwavering in that 'murderer would have hanged'. It follows that Kosminski was unlikely to have been merely a 'viable suspect' in Swanson's mind: either he knew nothing about the ID and therefore Kosminski was someone else's suspect; but, as others have pointed out, Swanson was the operational head and so it seems unlikely, or Kosminski was the murderer as far as Swanson was concerned.

I think Swanson was convinced that Kosminski was Jack. The question is: was he right to be convined?

In terms of Swanson not wanting to give the name to his family: it's difficult to see a clear, viable purpose in this. But then, every person decides what he thinks is a good idea - and Swanson was from a certain background. When pressed, I would guess that being a mason, with all its inherent secrecy and loyalty to the group, would have influenced this; as would his loyalty to the police force - after all, he wasn't the only way to not 'tell tales out of school' - Sagar, Cox, Anderson et al did not name their suspect - seems to be a pattern there.

[Sally]

Hello Sally,

With all respect, seriously, any person expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. Are you seriously trying to tell us that Kosminski, identified suspect, pointed out as the murderer, incarcerated for the rest of his days, is ignored by the rest of the police force, from top to bottom bar two, as they merrily carry on looking for the Whitechapel Murderer..and all the time only Sir Robert Anderson and Donald Swanson know that Kosminski is the Ripper, and carry on the fascade with that singular knowledge inside them? I am sorry but it beggars belief, pushing boundaries of known procedure...all for the sake of a nonentity that means nothing to almost everyone.. and that these two intrepid policemen know the truth the rest of the Metropolitan Police Force, the City Police Force, every politician, journalist and rag, tag and bobtail are in the height of hunger for such knowledge...and the search is going on in broad daylight for Jack the Ripper long, long after Kosminski is put away in a loony bin? And Swanson is STILL part of the hunt?

I say again.. any policeman expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer as DSS does, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. In the absence of another man named Kosminski...the answer is obvious... DSS is simply filling in Anderson's story.

DSS' direct work in the case clearly runs against the incarceration of this Kosminski being the murderer.......Oh..and so does Macnagthen's, and Reids, and Littlechild's, and just about every other policeman involved in the hunt for the Whitechapel Murderer after Kosminski's incarceration.

Please explain to me why, if Swanson and Anderson both knew of the incarceration of Kosminski, ipso facto the "id parade" before it, why the hunt for the Whitechapel murderer continued when a Cheif Inspector and the Assistant Commissioner knew it was a closed case? And ONLY those two....


best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil

Thanks for your reply, which by now I think other posters have answered quite well.

I see your point, yet at the same time, to my mind it does appear that Swanson may have believed that Kosminski was the Ripper. How do we explain this given the facts? Well, there are obviously gaps in our knowledge - often the case when things don't seem to add up. Perhaps, as I'm sure others have suggested, the operation to identify Kosminski at the Seaside Home was covert - that seems feasible given what we do know of it (which is little enough).

Of course, even if we accept that DSS considered Kosminski to have been the Ripper, we don't (yet) know the context of his suspect status, which makes it a little difficult for us to judge how viable that conclusion was.

There are very many 'whys' in this case, not least with regard to the marginalia.

[Chris]

On the one hand, we have family folklore, and on the other we have the marginalia. If there's a contradiction between the two, is it really hard to decide which to go with?

I really don't think there is any contradiction between the two. The family information is simply that "after he had retired in 1903", when some members of his family tried to get the name of DSS's suspect out of him, he refused to tell them. (And for all we know the family members concerned could have been his younger children, who were only teenagers when he retired.) I don't believe that writing it down for his own use, perhaps years later, would be inconsistent with that.

And after all, the idea that there's an inconsistency comes from some people's interpretations of something Jim Swanson said. But if there's one thing that's absolutely clear, it's that Jim Swanson believed that 'Kosminski' was DSS's chosen suspect. So Jim Swanson himself saw no inconsistency in DSS writing down the name of his suspect.

[harry]

Wow !!! Phil!!! and maybe the advice you gave to ministers contributed to the state the countriy's in today.You Bewdy!

[Phil H]

I guarrantee I have more of a mindset than you on 19th century personnel.My grandfather was born in the 1860's,as was my grandmother.My parents were born before the turn of the century,as were various aunts and uncles.Their friends were also of that era,and some were public servants,and even policemen.

Wow!!! harry!!1 you mean you've dicovered we all have ...ancestors!!

My schoolteachers,were ,in the majority ,from that era.Our lives overlapped by a great many years,and let me tell you,with small exceptions,they were no different whatsoever,than people today.

Then you must be VERY unperceptive, harry. Even in the 1950s people had a very different outlook and ethos from today.

Phil H

[Tom_Wescott]

Incredibly Stupid

Hi all,

The new issue of Rip had almost too much new information, and I think a lot of us have had to do some 'thinking out loud' on the boards to process it. I know I did. I was very intrigued by the family folklore regarding 'wild horses' not being able to get the identity of the Ripper from DSS, along with his alleged assurance that he knew who the Ripper was. Coupling this with the marginalia certainly got my wheels spinning. Rob House and others, such has Chris, have lived with Koz, the marginalia, etc. day and night for a long time, while many of the rest of us have pursued other areas of research, and are therefore not as well-versed in this particular area, so I can appreciate how our posts might seem 'stupid' to Rob. Most posts on Berner Street threads seem stupid to me.

Now that I've had time to process the new information, I've reached my own personal conclusion on the matter. On the one hand, we have family folklore, and on the other we have the marginalia. If there's a contradiction between the two, is it really hard to decide which to go with? I personally don't think so. And as Chris pointed out to me, there's ample evidence in the marginalia to conclude that Donald Swanson did view Kozminski as a viable suspect. This being the case, I don't see it as possible that he knew beyond any doubt that someone else was the Ripper. Therefore, if pressed, I would put forth the opinion that Swanson saw Kozminski as a viable suspect, but was not as convinced of his guilt as Anderson claimed to be.

Anyway, that's where I'm at right now. But I'm not married to it, so I can't wait to see what more there is to learn.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jonathan H]

To Abby Normal

Yes, that's possible.

But what the extant record, albeit sketchy and scrappy as it is, arguably shows us is that Sir Robert Anderson and Donald Swanson had no chief suspect at all until 1895, when, apparently, they were quite certain it was a deceased formerly locked-up lunatic (which seems to be in the wake of a Jewish witness saying 'yes' when confronted with a Ripper suspect, eg. William Grant and Lawende).

How is it that Anderson and Swanson mistakenly believe that 'Kosminski' is deceased, and Macnaghten knows he's not?

How can that be?

Sudgen makes a sharp observation in that in the Marginalia, Swanson's assertion that the murders ceased once the suspect was identified and caged, is wrong.

Wrong if the identification took place long after the Kelly murder, perhaps as late as 1891. Therefore the murderer did not stop back in late 1888 because of any identification. He just stopped, by himself, for over two years.

[harry]

Phil H,in reply to your last post to me.
I guarrantee I have more of a mindset than you on 19th century personnel.My grandfather was born in the 1860's,as was my grandmother.My parents were born before the turn of the century,as were various aunts and uncles.Their friends were also of that era,and some were public servants,and even policemen.My schoolteachers,were ,in the majority ,from that era.Our lives overlapped by a great many years,and let me tell you,with small exceptions,they were no different whatsoever,than people today.I myself was a public servant,and served in law enforcement.You w ant to discuss the whitechapel murders,then best you learn what laws applied at that time,beca use you'll be talking about policemen,and policemen were guide d by those laws.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Sally,

With all respect, seriously, any person expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. Are you seriously trying to tell us that Kosminski, identified suspect, pointed out as the murderer, incarcerated for the rest of his days, is ignored by the rest of the police force, from top to bottom bar two, as they merrily carry on looking for the Whitechapel Murderer..and all the time only Sir Robert Anderson and Donald Swanson know that Kosminski is the Ripper, and carry on the fascade with that singular knowledge inside them? I am sorry but it beggars belief, pushing boundaries of known procedure...all for the sake of a nonentity that means nothing to almost everyone.. and that these two intrepid policemen know the truth the rest of the Metropolitan Police Force, the City Police Force, every politician, journalist and rag, tag and bobtail are in the height of hunger for such knowledge...and the search is going on in broad daylight for Jack the Ripper long, long after Kosminski is put away in a loony bin? And Swanson is STILL part of the hunt?

I say again.. any policeman expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer as DSS does, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. In the absence of another man named Kosminski...the answer is obvious... DSS is simply filling in Anderson's story.

DSS' direct work in the case clearly runs against the incarceration of this Kosminski being the murderer.......Oh..and so does Macnagthen's, and Reids, and Littlechild's, and just about every other policeman involved in the hunt for the Whitechapel Murderer after Kosminski's incarceration.

Please explain to me why, if Swanson and Anderson both knew of the incarceration of Kosminski, ipso facto the "id parade" before it, why the hunt for the Whitechapel murderer continued when a Cheif Inspector and the Assistant Commissioner knew it was a closed case? And ONLY those two....


best wishes

Phil

because at the time the events happened, Kosminski was just another suspect. With time and no one else caught as the ripper, he became, in their minds, the ripper.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Hunter,

Yes.

Swanson investigated the Frances Coles murder, February 1891.

He was off with influenza during the William Grant Grainger/Alice Graham attack, March 1895.

Inspector Pitman investigated.

Regards,

Simon

[Hunter]

It may be worth mentioning that Swanson's "eyes and ears" role appears to have ended in December 1888 on the appointment of James Monro as Commissioner.

As Stewart Evans has pointed out, Swanson was relieved of the WM being his sole priority at that time. Existing subsequent documents reveal that he was still active in the WM investigation... it just wasn't his only responsibility.

[Bridewell]

A Continued Search

With all respect, seriously, any person expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. Are you seriously trying to tell us that Kosminski, identified suspect, pointed out as the murderer, incarcerated for the rest of his days, is ignored by the rest of the police force, from top to bottom bar two, as they merrily carry on looking for the Whitechapel Murderer..and all the time only Sir Robert Anderson and Donald Swanson know that Kosminski is the Ripper, and carry on the fascade with that singular knowledge inside them? I am sorry but it beggars belief, pushing boundaries of known procedure...all for the sake of a nonentity that means nothing to almost everyone.. and that these two intrepid policemen know the truth the rest of the Metropolitan Police Force, the City Police Force, every politician, journalist and rag, tag and bobtail are in the height of hunger for such knowledge...and the search is going on in broad daylight for Jack the Ripper long, long after Kosminski is put away in a loony bin? And Swanson is STILL part of the hunt?

There is always the possibility that Anderson & Swanson believed, following the ID, that Kosminski was responsible for one or more of the murders, but not all of them. Identification of Kosminsky and a continued search for 'Jack the Ripper' are not necessarily constrained by logic to be mutually exclusive.

On the subject of Kosminski generally:
If anybody hasn't read Stewart's masterful dissertation on the Kosminski / Seaside Home conundrum, it's well worth the effort. (Did I post this idea a couple of days ago? Probably - but worth repeating.)

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-koz.html

Regards, Bridewell.