There's Something Wrong with the Swanson Marginalia

[Tecs]

PS.: Maybe our talk would be more fitting in another thread!

Certainly. As you can see I'm quite new so I'm still getting used to the etiquette of the boards. You suggest where to go next (if you want to) and I'll see you there!

Many thanks.

[mariab]

Tecs,
I haven't yet read about about PC Henry Smith, but he difinitely doesn't sound “full of it“. The SID case for Chapman's son to have been a murder? Why not? I hear these cases are hell to prove, even today.
PS.: Maybe our talk would be more fitting in another thread!

[Tecs]

I just assumed that you were talking about some new information about another sink incident or who knows what.

No, no new info sorry! But as I was saying previously people have regarded his sink/basin! story as rubbish, in part because they have in my opinion misunderstood what he said.

If he had said, "I saw the bloody water gurgling down the sink myself as I was so close to catching him. He must have been only a few yards ahead of me." I would agree, it looks a bit over the top. But he said nothing of the sort. He simply said that he had arrived at the sink in time to see the bloodstained water for himself, which as I described previously could be an hour or so later.

As this is the man who was gracious enough to admit he was beaten by the ripper and didn't suggest that he had any secret info that he couldn't share, he always struck me as quite reliable. At least as much as Robert Anderson. And so the sink story seemed an interesting one.

Regards,

[Tecs]

Apologies for the confusion, I used “basin“ because I assumed that's how they called them in Victorian English, particularly when located outside. No idea if the word “sink“ existed then. I didn't mean that Chris Phillips and you were conducting research on Victorian sinks, I just assumed that you were talking about some new information about another sink incident or who knows what.

Ah, I understand now! Still true that you have to be pretty much an expert in every bit of your theory though!

I had no idea that Chapman's son was murdered?

No, officially he wasn't. He died of what we might call today "sudden infant death syndrome." In other words, he went to sleep one night and died at some point before being discovered next morning. I'm not sure if Gordon accuses him directly but I'm pretty certain that in one of his books he raises the question of whether Klosowski, man about town with style cramped by new kid, could have smothered him himself?

Regards,

[Natalie Severn]

To Simon

You make an excellent point, for sure.

I would counter with the following:

1. Macnaghten regarded himself as Etonian/ruling-elite and, I think, only regarded himself as 'subordinate', apprentice-wise to Monro. He was essentially parachuted into the Met to be a discre,et player, a mover-and-shaker between the competing forces, in and ousride the police force.

And I think Jonathan, that as a trustworthy old friend of Monro"s from India,who could give him support, especially as Monro had needed help for Chief Superintendent [Dolly] Williamson who had a breakdown in health in 1887.Two camps,bitterly opposed to the way each was conducting the "Secret Service [Irish] work" " had emerged :the Warren /Jenkinson camp,politically more liberal in 1887 over "Home Rule" and the Monro/Anderson camp,much more biased in favour of Ulster--though in MOnro"s case it was undoubtedly because,as a shrewd Scotsman he had an Adam Smith like appreciation of "Britains" overall economic interests.
So ,it was to this latter camp that Macnaghten was eventually able to be recruited, in 1889 ,the appointment Monro had tried to arrange for him ,as assistant chief constable, having been thwarted by Warren in the Spring of 1888.
Like Bill Clinton once said,"Its the economy stupid"----and this was why,in the end,the trade interests of mainland Britain had to take priority over Home Rule.

[mariab]

Thanks Tecs,
actually I've read up about the B.T.K. case and how he was caught, it's exactly as you said.(By the by, what an idiot this guy was!)
Apologies for the confusion, I used “basin“ because I assumed that's how they called them in Victorian English, particularly when located outside. No idea if the word “sink“ existed then. I didn't mean that Chris Phillips and you were conducting research on Victorian sinks, I just assumed that you were talking about some new information about another sink incident or who knows what.
I had no idea that Chapman's son was murdered? As for Chapman's alleged American crimes, people in some old threads (from 2008-2009) I've been perusing a while ago kept saying that the evidence don't fit anymore after “recent research“, no further info added. Maybe if you asked someone more experienced than me about this, they might have more information. How about Natalie Severn, or Simon Wood? (I don't really think there are any new posts or findings in the Chapman threads, but I haven't looked recently, so maybe you'll find something in there as well.)

[Tecs]

[QUOTE=mariab;152867]Tecs,
I didn't groan about your considering Chapman a possible suspect, as there has been a time (not too long ago) where I was considering him too. But since the word is out that the murders on American soil attributed to him do not add up, I have serious doubts.

Hi Maria,

Is there something very new regarding the American murders or are you talking about the general objections that people have had for a while?

Regards,

[Tecs]

QUOTE=mariab;152882]Thanks Tecs,
I might have heard of the B.T.K. case after all. I just don't recall how he was caught.

Off the top of my head, he engaged in a correspondance with the police and asked for assurance that he couldn't be traced by any floppy discs he would send in. They said no, but were able to trace the church computer that he sent them from. Something like that.

Naturally I knew about the allegation by PC Henry Smith about the Ripper having washed his hands in a public basin – and there were many such basins in Whitechapel


Sorry about any confusion. Is sink a particularly English word? I've noticed that you use the word basin. Is this more understandable to readers? Funnily enough, I've never had cause to consider this before....maybe I'm not as sad as I think?

I was just expecting further details known by Chris and you, as you discussed it in this thread...


It shows the level of research and detail that you need to be operating at nowadays. Not enough to just talk about basins, you need to be an expert on them! (Said with no sarcasm, I'm being deadly serious.)

There were several types of appliances that could be described as sinks or basins. There were communal basins with attached cups which people used in many different ways such as for example as they would use a modern drinking fountain, just for refreshment. (There is a scene in the 1988 Jack the Ripper mini series where Lewis Collins has a drink from one. He then proceeds to knock his hat in the water!) There would be plenty of space here to wash your hands. I believe that there were also communal sinks where people could wash, but I'm unsure whether they were meant for that purpose or whether they were for example troughs for horse's water which were comandeered by the local poor.

I read a piece a while ago which talked about a sink in a lodging house and suggested that it was so dark and filthy that if the ripper bolted in there, he could wash freely without anybody ever noticing him being up to no good.

But I have to be honest, I haven't really researched this in any detail.

The books by Michael Gordon, are they about Chapman?


Yes. Although since discussing the book that I sidelined a few years ago on these boards, I've been looking for the differences. Gordon basically accuses Chapman of JTR, the Thames torso murders, the American murders and even, if I remember correctly, his own son. I was only really concentrating on the JTR murders and maybe there is a gap for a more focussed book on that?

Regards,

[Tecs]

You"re not kidding! Especially as Sir Robert might be on his mobile to the Almighty!

Not as mad as it sounds, if you believe that youtube thingy....





Which I don't!

[Tecs]

Tec,
I am interested in Severin Klosowski too.Its great to read your posts,it really is!
Norma

Norma,

Thanks you very much, you are very kind.

Regards,

[Natalie Severn]

Tec,
I am interested in Severin Klosowski too.Its great to read your posts,it really is!
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Sorry Natalie, his wife has nothing to do with this.

Anderson, while sympathetic to the Unionist cause was obviously not so sympathetic as to become an Orangeman himself, or sign the Ulster Covenant (as far as I know).

As for firebrand he must have been hopeless. He was hardly a man of the people, a rabble rouser, or demagogue.

He could hardly become a "declared" Orangeman,because of the job he had could he? But the Longman"s Dictionary definition of "firebrand" is a person who "regularly causes anger and excitement among others" and he certainly did just that,particularly when Sir Melville Macnaghten alerted his old friend James Monro to the furore that was about to erupt about Anderson"s 1910 Blackwoods revelations and the permission Anderson said he had been given by Monro in 1887 to "brand" the Home Rule MP,Charles Parnell in the Times newspaper, as a traveller in terrorism.Look up Sir Winston Churchill"s correspondence to King Edward V11 of 22 April 1910 regarding the absolute furore Anderson had caused that April in Westminster.
With regard to Anderson"s wife,he introduces his wife"s background at the very beginning of his autobiography TYOMOL and it is with huge pride and "sympathy" to say the very least,to the Unionist/Orange cause!

[jason_c]

Lets say a "secret" Ulster firebrand ! His wife was from one of the original Derry Boy families and he was fervent about the Orange cause.

Sorry Natalie, his wife has nothing to do with this.

Anderson, while sympathetic to the Unionist cause was obviously not so sympathetic as to become an Orangeman himself, or sign the Ulster Covenant (as far as I know).

As for firebrand he must have been hopeless. He was hardly a man of the people, a rabble rouser, or demagogue.

[mariab]

Thanks Tecs,
I might have heard of the B.T.K. case after all. I just don't recall how he was caught.
Naturally I knew about the allegation by PC Henry Smith about the Ripper having washed his hands in a public basin – and there were many such basins in Whitechapel, even one just outside 29 Hanbury Street. Which was clean by the time it got examined, not necessarily meaning anything, and I have no idea if the water in the basin was running or static during the night of September 4, 1888. I'm pretty sure that the water in public basins in Victorian Whitechapel couldn't be turned on/off, but was running at specific intervals during the day. But during the night? I was just expecting further details known by Chris and you, as you discussed it in this thread...
The books by Michael Gordon, are they about Chapman?
Now back to my applications-a-thon. 3 applications sent, one last person to email for a recommendation, 2 deadlines still to go. Ugh! And it's supposed to be a holiday weekend...

[Tecs]

I didn't groan about your considering Chapman a possible suspect,

Thanks!

And by the way, a change of the M.O. has occurred in other cases, like in the Zodiac case and in others

Absolutely. You only need one other case to show that something is not impossible.

No clue who B.T.K. was.

He is a man called Denis Rader who murdered a number of people in Witchita Kansas. His nickname BTK stood for Bind Torture and Kill which he did to his victims. He is the most vile scum I have ever read about and the most vicious, heartless killer of all in my opinion (with the possible exception of Albert Fish) The point is he murdered men, women and children for years and then one day just gave up and lived a normal life. This instantly proves that you cannot rule out Chapman being the Ripper just because he was at large for years after the murders ended.

And I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with Michael Gordon's books and with the sink theory.

The point I was making with the sink is that Henry Smith said that he arrived at a public sink (where apparently the Ripper had washed his hands) in time to see the blood stained water himself. People over the years though have put words in his mouth saying that he exaggerated and talked about blood stained water gurgling down the sink. He didn't and you probably saw on my previous post what I think of his explanation.

Smith's reminiscenses on the Ripper are available here on the casebook if you search on him, I think they are chapter 16 of his memoirs. They are well worth a read.

Many thanks,

Regards,