There's Something Wrong with the Swanson Marginalia

[evilina]

The original text is actually the printed word. The marginalia itself is effectively tampering. That, however, is not my point. Firstly, the red lines are not an attempt at deception - nobody thinks they were trying to be taken as marks made by the orginal Swanson. They are a regretable but have no impact on the validity of the document. The pencil lines are more of a concern, however underlining existing text does not really change the content of the message. As to the validity of the document from a researchers point of view, I think that the whole arguement could be approached from another direction. Are there other examples of his annotations and /or notes? Stylistically was he likely to use some of the perculiarities found in the margin notes? Analysis of Swanson's writing samples would give as much evidence as checking handwriting samples.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Probably half the pencils in my mothers house date back to the 70's so it's not unlikely that an older pencil could have been used.

Hopefully not the 1870s......

Ink at least is absorbed by paper; I can't imagine how you'd test for the degree to which pencil lead has been "grabbed" by the page.

[Ally]

Hey Jen,

Yep, graphite is graphite and has been more or less for all time, agreed. However, the end paper is clearly written in a pencil that doesn't have the same grey/black sheen as regular graphite.

If it could be determined what kind of pencil would leave that particular marking, as opposed to regular graphite, and when those pencils were being manufactured, it could provide a clue. Regular pencils maintain their coloring even over time. So the purple sheen could help narrow it down.

Just as an example, if there was a common additive to pencils manufactured in 1960 that resulted in markings like that, well that would be definitive.

Unfortunately I lack the chemical awareness of pencil additives to even find a jumping off point to start with.

[Jenni Shelden]

Hi Ally and Robert,

sorry, maybe I wasn't clear in what I said last night (it was late). I have it on good authorirty (ies) that it is virtually impossible to date the actual pencil markings. Unlike the chemical make up with ink and its interaction with paper (which is what is tested in terms of diary ink etc), for pencils the way they have been made has been similar for centuries and one source of graphite can be used to make many pencils. While some chemical anaylsis on pencils may be possible in theory, in practical terms it is not possible. A major problem is that clay used in pencils is also used in the manufacture of paper.There is, in acuality, no such thing as a victorian age appropriate pencil.

While it may be possible to compare the pencil markings with a specific pencil and see if it is similar or to compare two markings and see if they were written with similar pencils, it would be difficult to conclude it was the same pencil as so many similar ones are in cirulcation.

It would seem other aspects such as handwriting and literay anaylsis would be the best course of action. And I beleive similar tests have been done. Although the exact scope and range of these tests and the full reports have never been made public (though the 06 test was partly quoted in the most recent A-Z).

Anyhow, thought i would share this as it is interesting info.

Hope this makes sense.

As I said before for my own curiosities sake I would be intrigued to know what the 06 report said!

Hope you are both well

Jenni

[Ally]

But if someone used an age appropriate pencil, I suspect you're cooked.

Probably half the pencils in my mothers house date back to the 70's so it's not unlikely that an older pencil could have been used.

I am not really sure if there are any tests that could validate the authenticity one way or another. I was trying to do a search about pencil manufacturing that the color turns bluish or purple with age but I am having to troll through a billion or so "maybelline violet eye pencil ...it lasts for ages".

[Ally]

How do you think anyone here has been attempting to 'keep this quiet', Ally?

Collective muzzling? Are you nuts??

X

No. Are you? What would you call it? You have played this game too long not to know the moves as well as I do. The calls on here and other forums that the boards aren't the place to discuss it, that nothing good will come of it, this should all be handled privately. The emails to all parties saying the same: "Oh any response just prolongs it and the boards aren't the place, so I am not going to respond" hint, hint, nudge nudge.

And of course the actual responses on the boards. You know full well that the best way to silence an idea is to pour scorn and ridicule, to try and make it seem a laughingstock or insignificant, in an attempt to make people feel too stupid to discuss it thoroughly.

To turn it all into a joke or to imply that the only people who are interested in pursuing this line of questioning are those with axes to grind and grudges to carry out and thereby distract from the actual debate with personal pissing matches.

Kind of like the one going on between you and Trevor right now.

Hmm....yes wherever would I get the idea that people don't want to actually examine the facts?

That might be because the facts will end up killing the sacred cow, and we can't have that now can we?

Trevor,

Thanks so much for helping to keep this debate on track. Once again, you have shown that your ability to handle people is MASTERFUL in bringing the facts to light and providing useful, intelligent discussion. Way to go. I am all for insulting people if the whim strikes, but you might want to work on doing it within the framework of making an overall point that's germane.

[Trevor Marriott]

I take it back. You'd need to grow a sense of humour first if you ever wanted to write comedy.

But you are always good for a laugh, Trev.

Remind me to get out my red felt tip for a quick touch-up if I ever want to defend a document's authenticity. A neat trick that would be - like cutting your own throat on tv.

Love,

Caz
X

Well I am sure Caz that if you have a big enough TV you could stand on it and cut your own throat but you would have to stop talking first to get a clean cut and as its you i can never see that ever happening !

[caz]

Well you obvioulsy couldnt face the truth then and still cant now

I take it back. You'd need to grow a sense of humour first if you ever wanted to write comedy.

But you are always good for a laugh, Trev.

Remind me to get out my red felt tip for a quick touch-up if I ever want to defend a document's authenticity. A neat trick that would be - like cutting your own throat on tv.

Love,

Caz
X

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

One thing I do know is that as the document is written in pencil, it would be difficult, if not impossible to date the document from it (unlike the likelihood of having been able todate the diary from its ink, and not going into details on how this is done/has been attempted, its been a while after all). i suppose it might be possible to determind if more than one type of pencil had been used.

The Diary analogy has its merits, Jenni.

If you recall, while the ink could be shown to be modern if it used age inappropriate elements, there is still no test for when ink hits paper. (A stab can be made by determining how soluble the ink is to see how well it has "bound" with the paper.) So if a modern day forger used reconstituted Victorian ink, that's pretty much that....

So.......if perchance by some miracle modern pencil lead contains something Victorian era pencils didn't, we might be able to do something. Obviously you'd have to punch some holes in the book for samples.

But if someone used an age appropriate pencil, I suspect you're cooked.

[Jenni Shelden]

I would be interested to know, for my own curiosity (as I indeed do have a long running fascination in this part of the ball park, for my many sins), what testing has been done and if the reports are readily available. As I say, just because i find this area one of interest.

I would also be interested to know what further examinations would be suggested as necessary. (Again with feelings neither one way or the other about the need for them).

One thing I do know is that as the document is written in pencil, it would be difficult, if not impossible to date the document from it (unlike the likelihood of having been able todate the diary from its ink, and not going into details on how this is done/has been attempted, its been a while after all). i suppose it might be possible to determind if more than one type of pencil had been used. But i thought from A-Z that it had already been determind that the end paper entry was in a different pencil/written at a different point to the notes inside the book's pages. (cant remember exactly) when the tests were conducted in 06.

I also wonder, if it is wise to conduct any testing until it has been determind exactly what has gone on properly. It is clear the document has been drawn on, whether with the mallice afterthought some imply ,or not.

We do not want to enter into a Maybrick style scenrio after testing. Which is one reason, I was intially worried about the potential consequences of the appearance of these red marks, and still am, if to a much lesser extent.

Jenni

[Trevor Marriott]

They are indeed, Trev. Apparently I sat bolt upright in bed once in my sleep, said "Look at the state of that!" and lay back down again.

Love,

Caz
X

Well you obvioulsy couldnt face the truth then and still cant now

[caz]

Typical woman always has to have the last word I bet your teeth are happy when you are asleep.

They are indeed, Trev. Apparently I sat bolt upright in bed once in my sleep, said "Look at the state of that!" and lay back down again.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I would also disagree with you If I were Nevel Swanson and were aware of what is being suggested. I would willingy agree to the tests being conducted unless of course I had something to hide and knew that the tests may reveal something sinister which would put me in an untennable position.

You seriously think that if 'Nevel' [sic] Swanson were aware of what is being suggested and who is doing the suggesting, he would do himself a favour by 'agreeing' to some nebulous demand for further tests on marginalia he never had any reason to doubt was genuine in the first place? What's in it for him, if the people doing the suggesting show signs of having made their minds up already and never being satisfied, no matter who conducts the tests and what results are forthcoming?

You ought to write comedy, Trev.

Oh wait, you already do.

Love,

Caz
X

[Trevor Marriott]

Yeah, it's always someone else making demands and casting nasturtiums, isn't it Trev?

Love,

Caz
X

Typical woman always has to have the last word I bet your teeth are happy when you are asleep.

[Monty]

Trevor,

What exactly are you hoping to achieve by forensically testing the Marginalia? It sure as hell didn't work for the diary.

Ally,

I like conspiracy nuts foaming at the mouth. I also like them chasing tails and yapping loudly.

It amuses.

Monty