'The Swanson Marginalia' Revisited

[Jeff Leahy]

Indeed Chris,

My memory is a little sketchy over this matter but isnt it alleged that the 'added' notes were made with a more modern pencil?

Monty

Hi Monty

As Stewart states I'm not an expert on the subject, and have never claimed to be so, however I have spoken at length to various people involved (including Stewart) At no piont has anyone ever suggested a modern pencil?

Indeed I would be interested in your source (before I bet my house against Ally's) on this post. To my knowledge no-one has ever done any tests on The Marginalia apart from Provenance (which is excellent) and hand writing.

While it is true that the end notes are in a different pencil and written at different times. My study of the subject leads me to conclude that no line can be drawn between the time between when these accounts were written.

Yes they may have been weeks, months possibly years apart. But equally they could have been written between lunch break, while dear old Swanson retired to his Summer House and wrote under different conditions..

Please supply your source.

All the best Pirate

PS Its hardly surprising Ally has chosen to go looking for Pink Elephants. It is after all her area of expertise

[Tom_Wescott]

I think Ally's points are quite good ones. How can one tell, from looking at a photo, that years seperated entries, unless the good doctor was persuaded by his own argument that advanced age had caused the slight difference in handwriting.

And like Ally said, who is to say he didn't grab an old pencil out of drawer?

Perhaps the difference in handwriting had to do with motion. He may have scripted the second part while traveling in cab or carriage.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Of course, it may be that no one is now in a position to give an answer to that question.

The best clue to the date that I've seen was in a post by Martin Fido in January 2006:
"When Jim Swanson and his brother first acquired their grandfather's copy of Anderson's memoirs and saw the marginalia they immediately recognized the public interest, and offered the information for sale to the News of the World. A reporter took details and they were paid a reasonable fee for the time - something like seventy-five pounds if I remember aright. Shortly after that N o W changed owners or editor, and the new regime didn't use the material."

This apparently refers to the replacement of David Montgomery as editor with Wendy Henry, which - as far as I can determine from online sources - coincided with the acquisition of the Today newspaper by Rupert Murdoch at the beginning of July 1987. If that's correct it would place the Swansons' approach to the News of the World in or before June 1987 - presumably not too long before, if they attributed the newspaper's failure to use the material to the change of editors.

Thanks for that information Chris, however it isnt an exact date and putting it back into the context of Stewart"s question and the possibility he mentioned that Martin Fido"s book may have already been published,and therefore read ,it doesnt really answer the crucial part of Stewart Evans"s question.


I am still puzzled by Swanson"s grandson not knowing anything at all about this hundred year old information ,all along in his family"s domain ,particularly that he was previously ignorant of proof existing within that family that his grandfather and Sir Robert Anderson,had identified someone as famous, world wide, as Jack the Ripper.

I am also puzzled by Paul's insistence that Martin Fido is the sole person qualified to speak about Robert Anderson.
On the contrary, I would have thought Stewart Evans, as a fellow Ripper author par excellence, was more specifically qualified.
Stewart after all is not only a supreme expert on the activities of the Victorian Police ,having spent years studying their notes, files and other archived materials,but he also has immediate access, through his vast collection of personal letters to the private thinking of many of them -----Robert Anderson ,Melville Macnaghten ,Major Smith to name but a few that I have personally seen when I visited Rosie and himself a few years back.
As an ex- Policeman of 30 years experience,Stewart also has the edge on those who are unfamiliar with the police force.His is no "Ivory tower" of theory with no actual experience or consequent understanding ,of the day to day practice of police matters .So his understanding of how such "Princes" of the Victorian Police such as Anderson ,Warren and Macnaghten would have operated within the force must be second to non.
Anderson though,was no saint even though he appears to have deluded himself he was.He was actually an upper middle class,highly political Orange man, who from his earliest youth had been driven by his determination to defeat Irish Nationalists in their quest for Independence from England and this included defeating those who wanted to gain their Independance by peaceful Parliamentary means such as the leader of Home Rule, the MP Parnell.
Anderson was a spymaster and and an expert at " Disinformation" ,he believed the ends justified the means .Anderson was not a policeman in the sense Abberline was.In later life he even appears to have believed he had his own hotline to God.A really strange man actually.
Who was it said,"Put not your trust in Princes" ?

[Jeff Leahy]

How can one tell, from looking at a photo, that years seperated entries, unless the good doctor was persuaded by his own argument that advanced age had caused the slight difference in handwriting.

And like Ally said, who is to say he didn't grab an old pencil out of drawer?

Perhaps the difference in handwriting had to do with motion. He may have scripted the second part while traveling in cab or carriage.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, you cant and to my understanding no one has said you can. There are simply descrepancies that might be explained in a number of ways.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

I am also puzzled by Paul's insistence that Martin Fido is the sole person qualified to speak about Robert Anderson.
On the contrary, I would have thought Stewart Evans, as a fellow Ripper author par excellence, was more specifically qualified.

I think it hsa been suggested that Martin Fido is an expert in this feild, which he is...I dont think Stewart claims to be so, although I stand to be corrected.

Pirate

PS. Stewarts' expertise on the subject of JtR is not being questioned. Certainly not by me. He is an expert of great reputation and someone who's books I use in Daily reference, constantly. I am merely questioning suggestions that the Marginalia may have been forged, for which there is no evidence. I may not be an expert but I have questioned this at length with those involved, including Stewart, Paul and Martin.

[Natalie Severn]

If somebody was deliberately going to create a hoax, doesn't it seem reasonable that they would attempt to make money from it? But that is not the case here, right?

c.d.

Perhaps the word "hoax" here is unfortunate. But in so far as Swanson"s grandson wanted to sell this to a big National Newspaper with a very large circulation,like The News of The World [or" The News of the Screws" as its usually called ] he was clearly hoping for some remuneration wasnt he?He didnt take it straight to Scotland Yard or publish it in Paul Begg"s academia did he?
He took it to the News of the World because he thought it was worth something for goodness sake.

[Natalie Severn]

I think it hsa been suggested that Martin Fido is an expert in this feild, which he is...I dont think Stewart claims to be so, although I stand to be corrected.

Pirate

How about thinking for yourself Jeff?
Ofcourse Stewart is an expert on Police matters, dont be ridiculous.

[Tom_Wescott]

That's exactly what I would have done if I weren't looking to publish my own book. I'd let someone pay me for first rights of publication. Donate it to a museum my butt! That would come after payday.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris]

Thanks for that information Chris, however it isnt an exact date and putting it back into the context of Stewart"s question and the possibility he mentioned that Martin Fido"s book may have already been published,and therefore read ,it doesnt really answer the crucial part of Stewart Evans"s question.

I believe Martin Fido's book was published in September 1987, so that would place the contact with the News of the World before the publication of the book. But of course it could be argued that this doesn't prove much unless it can be verified from other sources.

Incidentally, Alan Sharp's article on the marginalia in Ripper Notes Extra from November 2006 (previously at http://extra.rippernotes.com/?p=38 but now vanished into the ether) did place the approach to the News of the World in 1987. I'm not sure whether that's based on firm information beyond what's been discussed above, though.

I am still puzzled by Swanson"s grandson not knowing anything at all about this hundred year old information ,all along in his family"s domain ,particularly that he was previously ignorant of proof existing within that family that his grandfather and Sir Robert Anderson,had identified someone as famous, world wide, as Jack the Ripper.

Stewart did post last year that Jim Swanson said that his father had told him "Your grandfather knows all about Jack the Ripper", so perhaps it wouldn't have come as a complete surprise.

[Natalie Severn]

That's exactly what I would have done if I weren't looking to publish my own book. I'd let someone pay me for first rights of publication. Donate it to a museum my butt! That would come after payday.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

and thats ok by me too----but it cant then be argued he didnt have his eye on the main chance!

[Stewart P Evans]

Handwriting

So, I have been thinking about this and a couple of thoughts have occurred to me. I really do not understand how someone can look at a photo of two handwriting samples and determine that one was written years after the first. I am sure that this might be possible, and it is more to a defect in my understanding that I don't see it, but until I get a satisfactory explanation as to precisely HOW this is possible, I am going to choose to dismiss the idea that the marginalia containing the word Kosminski has definitively been proved to have been written years after the other marginalia.

One of the most noticeable things about handwriting changes are those that are caused by illness or old age. So if someone aged significantly between writing these two samples this could be visibly discernable in the writing. I think, if you look at it, the endpaper writing does appear to be more shaky than that in the marginalia on page 138. This may well be how Dr Christopher Davis was able to determine that it was written 'some years later.' But he's the expert on these things, not I.

[Stewart P Evans]

Jim Swanson

...Stewart did post last year that Jim Swanson said that his father had told him "Your grandfather knows all about Jack the Ripper", so perhaps it wouldn't have come as a complete surprise.

In a letter to me in July 2000 Jim Swanson wrote, 'My grandfather had 5 children, my father was the eldest. I don't know what prompted him to tell me "Your grand father knows all about Jack the Ripper." Thats all he ever told me.'

[Monty]

Jeff,

You want me to cite a source on a question asking if its allegded a modern pencil has been used?

Im not making a statement here, a was querying. Therefore I cite myself.

I recall the same question many months ago when AP, and his minnions, were questioning the Littlechild Letter.

And you are not the only one to have discussed this matter with Stewart and Paul. I have also. And the topic of modern pencils was mentioned, albeit briefly and, again, raised by myself.

Ally,

Extremely valid point.

Monty

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Monty;72611]

I recall the same question many months ago when AP, and his minnions, were questioning the Littlechild Letter.




Why the snide remark, Monty?

[Monty]

Actually Norma,

I apologise. It wasnt the same question at all. Just a similar accusation.

Monty


PS, I wasnt being snide at all, I think my post was pretty clear and open.