PC Neil's Route

[Elamarna]

Beat Number 3 as conducted by PC97J John NEIL on the 31st August 1888.

Have to say also confused how this proposal for the route actually workd, he was walking from the west end of Bucks Row when he found Nichols and one assume he was therefore working clockwise. The division at Winthrope really seems out.

I personally think the one in post #43 works better , but am open to persuasion on it as it's not set in stone

Steve

[Elamarna]

Beat Number 3 as conducted by PC97J John NEIL on the 31st August 1888.

Hi station cat

The first of your two posts was in post #41 your map is slightly different from that in post
43, the major differences being Winthrop street and how this was approached and the Northern end of Queen Anne street which you have left off. Queen Anne interests me so can I ask the reasoning for that decision?


Cheers


Steve

[The Station Cat]

Beat Number 3 as conducted by PC97J John NEIL on the 31st August 1888.

[The Station Cat]

Echo
London, U.K.
21 September 1888

EAST END MURDERS
THE POLICEMEN'S NIGHT BEATS
THE PRESENT PRECAUTIONS
A Correspondent has obtained exact details of those police beats covering the area within which the Buck's row murder was committed. From this it will be seen that the murderer had no doubt a considerable time in which he was quite sure of being undisturbed by a police constable, assuming he knew the beats. It seems that, notwithstanding the frequent repetition of murders round Whitechapel, under circumstances leading to the conclusion that they were the work of one man, not one single extra police officer was put upon the ground until after the commission of the fourth and last murder. Then the streets were filled night and by by police in and out of uniform.

During the month of August, and up to the 8th instant, when Annie Chapman was killed, the following beats were covered by the men of the J Division quartered at Bethnal Green, these forming what is known as the "Second Section night duty." The first police constable would commence his two beats at Wilmot street, three Colt land, Cheshire street, Mape street, Bethnal Green road, to Wilmot street, and the interior, this consisting of a few streets, courts, passages, &c. The second constable would cover Three Colt lane, Collingwood street, Darling row, Dog row, Whitechapel road, Brady street, to Three Colt lane, and the interior, this consisting of about twenty streets, courts, passages, &c; the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c. The fourth constable would commence at Baker's row, go through Nottingham street, White street, Bethnal Green road, Mape street, London street, to Baker's row, and all the interior, consisting of about thirty streets, courts, passages, &c. The fifth and last man of the section would cover Whitechapel road alone, this making a total of nine beats for the five constables. The third beat was the one within the limit of which Mrs. Nicholl (sic) was murdered. The exterior of the beats are at least a mile in extent, and to this distance must be added the interiors.

[The Station Cat]

In 1888, J division had a strength of 38 Inspectors, 56 sergeants and 417 Constables, of which two thirds were employed on nightly duty

Monty
��

That's not very many when you consider just how big J Division was and the bit we're interested in was only a very small part of it, roughly the same size as H Division, but where as H had 4 stations and a section house, Bethnal Green area only had two stations and no section house (that I'm aware of) and we're only interested in one of those stations, that being 458 Bethnal Green Road, which only had 13 bobbies resident and about the same again perhaps living in the immediate community. That doesn't give us very many, especially if Neil's beat was so small as suggested in CSI Whitechapel.

[Monty]

In 1888, J division had a strength of 38 Inspectors, 56 sergeants and 417 Constables, of which two thirds were employed on nighty duty

Neil stated "his beat" and his collar number indicated he was not a reserve. If he was, his prefix would be 'JR' and not 'J'.

Monty
��

[Elamarna]

http://www.casebook.org/victims/polly.crossneil.html

Robert thanks for that link.

My only reservation is the placing of Mulshsw.
He claimed he was only 30 yards from the murder site in a straight line. He is far further away on that plan. I have placed him around the railway line myself at the other end of the street.


Steve

[Elamarna]

This beat doesn't seem particularly long. Personally I think it would have been longer than this. I'm basing my conclusion on, that of available man power. If every beat was a similar length, then over 100 officers would have been required, to cover the whole patch, which they didn't appear to have anywhere near? If you compare it to the various H division beats, we can confirm, they are considerably longer than that given in CSI Whitechapel.

Hi

Have you seen posts 41 and 43, they give a reasonable length of beat and seem to fit with Neil's timings


Steve

[The Station Cat]

CSI Whitechapel by Bennett and Begg has the route mapped out. Personally I've not come across the exact route but I have no reason to doubt them.

Monty

This beat doesn't seem particularly long. Personally I think it would have been longer than this. I'm basing my conclusion on, that of available man power. If every beat was a similar length, then over 100 officers would have been required, to cover the whole patch, which they didn't appear to have anywhere near? If you compare it to the various H division beats, we can confirm, they are considerably longer than that given in CSI Whitechapel.

[Robert]

http://www.casebook.org/victims/polly.crossneil.html

[Elamarna]

No need for a gap just throwing the concept out there, there is clear evidence that one existed, in the form of discrepancies between timings claimed by those involved. Which is inevitable I suppose.

But going back to me following theory...................



I suspect that Bethnal Green Station, would have been responsable for roughly this area. As far North as Hackney Road, as fair east as Collingwood Road, as far south as Durwood Street and as far west as the boundary with H division.

The question is how many bobbies did they have covering this area. The 1881 & 1891 censuses list 13 officers as resident in the station, perhaps the same again in the surrounding community. These would have been split over 3, 8 hour shifts. So lets say roughly 10 bobbies and perhaps one Sgt on the beat, all the beats would interconnect if not overlap. I suspect that this wasn't enough to cover the area satisfactorily. It is well documented by several witnesses that they rarely saw an officer (the night watchmen on Bucks Row itself being one example).

Thanks I understand now.

Personally I would be careful with the statements of the night watchman when one takes into account all of his testimony.


Steve

[The Station Cat]

Hi Station Cat

Why do you think there needs to be a gap? I seriously see no need for any gap for the killer to do his work.
Would like to understand the reasoning as it's something not considered before.

All the best

Steve

No need for a gap just throwing the concept out there, there is clear evidence that one existed, in the form of discrepancies between timings claimed by those involved. Which is inevitable I suppose.

But going back to me following theory...................



I suspect that Bethnal Green Station, would have been responsable for roughly this area. As far North as Hackney Road, as fair east as Collingwood Road, as far south as Durwood Street and as far west as the boundary with H division.

The question is how many bobbies did they have covering this area. The 1881 & 1891 censuses list 13 officers as resident in the station, perhaps the same again in the surrounding community. These would have been split over 3, 8 hour shifts. So lets say roughly 10 bobbies and perhaps one Sgt on the beat, all the beats would interconnect if not overlap. I suspect that this wasn't enough to cover the area satisfactorily. It is well documented by several witnesses that they rarely saw an officer (the night watchmen on Bucks Row itself being one example).

[Elamarna]

Robert, what an interesting observation .

How about this then....................

What if PC Neil's beat, WASN'T his beat at all. What if he was on "Reserve", that night and had only been deployed to this beat, following the original officer covering that beat arriving at the station with a prisoner and then Neil being assigned to cover the beat whilst the original officer booked his prisoner in with the custody sergeant. That would certainly leave a large gap in the beat, more than enough time for Jack to do his work at a leisurely pace (perhaps Jack was even aware that the beat bobby proper was going to be committed for a while) and took the opportunity............

Further add to this that perhaps Neil hadn't done this beat before so didn't follow it exactly to form, this again might make gaps. Especially if he didn't know he was doing the beat incorrectly.

Hi Station Cat

Why do you think there needs to be a gap? I seriously see no need for any gap for the killer to do his work.
Would like to understand the reasoning as it's something not considered before.

All the best

Steve

[The Station Cat]

Hi David,

Your attachment delineates the boundaries of J Division.

FYI, PC Neil's beat included Winthrop Street.

Regards,

Simon

In all seriousness, with the absence of any existing beat maps.

I suspect that Bethnal Green Station, would have been responsable for roughly this area. As far North as Hackney Road, as fair east as Collingwood Road, as far south as Durwood Street and as far west as the boundary with H division.

The question is how many bobbies did they have covering this area. The 1881 & 1891 censuses list 13 officers as resident in the station, perhaps the same again in the surrounding community. These would have been split over 3, 8 hour shifts. So lets say roughly 10 bobbies and perhaps one Sgt on the beat, all the beats would interconnect if not overlap. I suspect that this wasn't enough to cover the area satisfactorily. It is well documented by several witnesses that they rarely saw an officer (the night watchmen on Bucks Row itself being one example).

[The Station Cat]

A Section Sergeant kept an eye on the men who conducted beats in his section, in this case Sgt Kirby.

He would patrol his section, and meet up with the PCs at set times and locations. However, he would also do spot checks, ensuring the PC was where he should be, and not in the Pub.



Monty
:y

Adding again to my above theory. What if Sgt KIRBY had also become involved in our unknown bobbies arrest, accompanies him to the station with the prisoner. Obtains Neil and returns back to the patrol area. Tell's Neil where he should be covering and leaves him to it, after all there would have been several other bobbies on patrol in the surrounding area, what would have been needed checking on.