John, John, John

[David Orsam]

No worries Robert, they are rather similar.

[Robert]

Sorry David I think I misread 'Buck's Row' for 'Baker's Row' in your previous post.

[David Orsam]

I had hoped that Monty would be on his usual beat, patrolling these threads, and lo and behold......

[Monty]

H division patrolled the western side of Bakers Row, J division the eastern side.

Monty
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[David Orsam]

Was Mizen assigned Buck's Row as part of his beat? If not, I would have thought Neil's reaction would have been 'what are you doing here?' unless he happened to spot Mizen at the very top of the road?

But that's precisely what Neil said: he spotted Mizen in Baker's Row, or rather he flashed his lantern and received a reply from Mizen's lantern in Baker's Row. So he wouldn't have asked Mizen what he was doing there, as long as Mizen's beat took him down Baker's Row. As to that, Neil's beat clearly included Whitechapel Road to Baker's Row and then down to Buck's Row so there must have been an overlap if Mizen's beat took him past Baker's Row towards Whitechapel Road. Looking at the Police Orders from the time, however, there does, oddly, seem to have been an overlap between H and J Divisions here.

[Robert]

Was Mizen assigned Buck's Row as part of his beat? If not, I would have thought Neil's reaction would have been 'what are you doing here?' unless he happened to spot Mizen at the very top of the road?

[David Orsam]

There is certainly a discrepancy between the evidence of PC Neil and the evidence of PC Mizen but that seems to be easily explained. Mizen tells us that he was on his way to Buck's Row at the time, having been informed that there was a woman lying in that street. But when Neil saw Mizen's lantern at the Baker's Row end of the Buck's Row he would have had no reason to think that the constable was doing anything other than conducting his normal beat down Baker's Row (assuming that was indeed Mizen's normal beat). So he flashed his lantern to him to indicate that he needed assistance. When Mizen came to him he simply assumed that it was in response to the lantern flashing. He could have had no idea that Mizen was already on his way and, indeed, he would not for one moment have conceived that Mizen was departing from his beat (which he was not allowed to do). As far as Neil was concerned, he had discovered the body and had only told PC Thain about it - and Thain had gone in the other direction to fetch the doctor - so it was impossible for Mizen to have known. For his part, Mizen apparently believed that he had been told that a constable was wanting him in Buck's Row so when he saw Neil flash his lantern he would have assumed that this was the constable who been waiting for him to arrive.

There is no reason to attribute superhuman powers to PC Neil in being able to look through buildings. He was not rooted to the spot by the courtyard in Buck's Row and, as Monty has pointed out, could have seen Mizen's lamp from the other side of the road. Neil tells us that he went across the road to Essex Wharf and rung the bell, and perhaps he was just about to do that when he saw Mizen's lantern.

[Monty]

If you stand on Essex Wharfhside you can see Bakers Row, however, this statement seems to be a mix up re Thain, and Brady Street.

Monty
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[Pcdunn]

Hello, Sluggo!

Thank you for the information. I have been reading up on the Nichols case, as it is the subject of a debate here on the forums relating to the new suspect, Charles Allen Lechmere (aka Charles Cross). If you haven't already, please check out "Missing Evidence" and "Let's get Lechmere off the hook" threads.
I haven't noticed anyone mentioning that PCD Neil would not have had a sight line to the next street. Interesting detail.

[Sluggo]

Hi PC Dunn,
I notice you are also from the U.S.... Colorado.
If you read through several of the Newspapers of the time, you come to notice that the reporting actually wasn't that bad. Some of them were very close to what would seem verbatim, and I think aside from a few, they were legit, reputable newspapers. It is after all, all we have, since most of the original inquest documents are missing. I spend hours scrutinizing individual testimony and piecing together the events that transpired before and after the murders. If you go to the Photo Archives on this website, go to the Buck's Row photos, #18/32, to be specific. This photo is of the scene of Polly's death in Buck's Row (Durward, now). It was taken facing West towards Baker's Row (Vallance, now). You will notice that the Row (street) curves from that view point. So, if you are standing at the murder scene, or even across in front of what was Essex Wharf, you do not have even the slightest view of Baker's Row, and therefore, are unable to "see" a constable passing through Baker's Row. Read PC Neil's testimony from the Mary Ann Nichols Inquest (Day 1). I read, Daily News, Sept. 3, 1888, Evening Standard, Sept. 3, 1888, and Daily Telegraph, Sept. 3, 1888. In all (3), PC Neil stated: "Seeing another Constable pass along Baker's Row, and sent him for the Ambulance."
Let me know what your thoughts are....

Sluggo

[Pcdunn]

Hi PC Dunn,
Well, I think he was related to Clark Kent, as he seems to have had X-Ray vision.
He was not able to Leap Tall Buildings, but according to his testimony, he was able to see through them.

Sluggo

yes, well, testimony" is a bugaboo in this field of research!

But, seriously, wouldn't a POLICEMAN have been a great disguise for the Ripper? They're out there at all hours of the day and night, and no one notices them, except when finding a dead body on the walkway (whereupon it becomes a nuisance to find, stop and talk to one)... You may be onto something here! Good luck...

[Sluggo]

Hi PC Dunn,
Well, I think he was related to Clark Kent, as he seems to have had X-Ray vision.
He was not able to Leap Tall Buildings, but according to his testimony, he was able to see through them.

Sluggo

[Pcdunn]

Do you suspect him of being more than a police officer on the scene?

I do think it is interesting that he thought he had been the first to find the body of Polly Nichols, though it later came out PC Mizen had been told about the woman a short time earlier.

[Sluggo]

Hello,
I am wondering why there are no threads under PC John Neil 97J Division?

Sluggo