PC Neil's Hearing

[Geddy2112]

We read of PC Neil hearing a PC from some 150 yards away etc. I've looked at Jeff's simulation of Bucks Row. If Neil heard a PC from 150 yards away why not Cross or Paul when it appears they were closer? Was there not a direct line of sight at any time even though this would have been impeded by darkness?

At any given time what was possibly the shortest distance between Neil and Cross/Paul whilst the latter were walking either pre or post discovery?

[Duran duren]

Thats some suspect hearing IMO, or maybe he heard someone else moving a lot faster than a walk which might have been the killer escaping, just a thought.

[JeffHamm]

I've not gone back to review, but as I recall, in the simulations PC Neil would not have a direct line of sight (he's to the north, and there's a bend in the road that would block his view).

Also, acoustics are weird. When I was walking into work today there was a fire alarm going off in one of the buildings I walk past. I didn't hear it until very close, as the buildings blocked the sound (granted, there was also some traffic, so modern ambient sound levels are different, but still, the point is, sounds we might expect someone to hear can very easily not be heard due to the specifics of the layout of the buildings and so forth). But, I could hear for a long way once I passed it. So either the sound carried in that direction, or once I noticed it, I could track it. In either case, two things changed, my position and my awareness at the time. Both apply to PC Neil.

The other thing to take into account other than the physical distances is that PC Neil, after finding a body, is now actively seeking others - so he is in "searching" mode (searching for both signs of the perpetrator and for assistance). When Cross/Lechmere and Paul walk through Buck's Row, PC Neil is just doing his routine patrol - he is in two very different states.

Given the distance between him and the carmen, I'm not surprised that he would not have noticed them.

The distances can be worked out by going here and choosing the "OS 25 inch 1892-1914" overlay, and measuring the distances using the measurement tool (upper right corner, looks like a protractor and a triangle ruler). The distance, I suspect, will be roughly similar, but the street layout isn't straight, so the sounds won't carry the same.

Also, it is possible that PC Neil saw PC Thain's lantern, or saw him as that end was lit by gas lighting. Describing it has "hearing him" rather than "seeing him" could just be either a turn of phrase, or a genuine confusion over which sense drew his attention to PC Thain in the first place.

While I don't claim the positions in the simulations are exact, rather they are rough estimates based upon my own calculations, I do know that others who have done similar things place PC Neil in the same general area (to the north, somewhere in Wodeham Street, and note how it is not straight but has a bend to it, unlike the view up to where PC Thain was from the crime scene).

Also, while Police issue boots were I think a bit noisy, the carmen wouldn't be wearing the same thing, so their footwear would make less noise. I'm not entirely sure how true that is, though (that police boots were more noisy than common footwear, but it's often put out there as if it were fact - but is it, a fact I mean?)

- Jeff

[Geddy2112]

Hi Jeff, many thanks for the reply. I know there would have been a lot at play here like buildings, echoes etc. Just was wondering if there was at any point a probably line of sight/sound between the three. Many thanks. Enjoy your weekend.

[Fiver]

Also, while Police issue boots were I think a bit noisy, the carmen wouldn't be wearing the same thing, so their footwear would make less noise. I'm not entirely sure how true that is, though (that police boots were more noisy than common footwear, but it's often put out there as if it were fact - but is it, a fact I mean?)

- Jeff

I suspect that it is a myth. If police boots were notably louder than other footwear, it would make it easy for criminals to tell if the approaching person was police and give those criminals more time to escape.

[Geddy2112]

I suspect that it is a myth. If police boots were notably louder than other footwear, it would make it easy for criminals to tell if the approaching person was police and give those criminals more time to escape.

However I believe some did have springs on their Heels...

[JeffHamm]

I suspect that it is a myth. If police boots were notably louder than other footwear, it would make it easy for criminals to tell if the approaching person was police and give those criminals more time to escape.

I think it might not be quite a myth, but over stated. I wouldn't be surprised if police had better boots than the average person, and at the time, better boots meant harder soles to the boots, which in turn tended to be noisier.

But you're right. Ideally we need a comparison of police issue boots and "typical common footwear" before we make the type of claims I suggested.

- Jeff

[Geddy2112]

Aussie Boots, but I assume ours were similar.. https://mypolice.qld.gov.au/museum/2...-police-boots/



I'm not sure they would have been 'that' noisy...

[Elamarna]

What maybe needs to be taken into account is that it's highly probable that Neil and Thain passed each other around the junction of Bucks Row / Brady Street, on every round of their beats, approx every 30 minutes.

If such is the case then it's very possible that being aware Thain was due to pass he was actively Looking and Listen for him.

From the testimony it seems clear that having heard Thain, Lechmere signalled with his lamp.

Steve

[Elamarna]

We read of PC Neil hearing a PC from some 150 yards away etc. I've looked at Jeff's simulation of Bucks Row. If Neil heard a PC from 150 yards away why not Cross or Paul when it appears they were closer? Was there not a direct line of sight at any time even though this would have been impeded by darkness?

At any given time what was possibly the shortest distance between Neil and Cross/Paul whilst the latter were walking either pre or post discovery?

Hi Geddy, all of this , the lines of sight, positions where the carmen might be to avoid being seen or heard are given in Inside Bucks Row.

There was a limited line of sight for Neil towards Bakers Row from Around Essex Whalf, depending on his placement he could see about a third of the junction , if I recall. And he saw Mizen, not heard him.

It's a very real possibility that when Neil entered Bucks Row, the carmen were either about to leave it, or already had done, and were possibly talking to Mizen.

Steve

[Elamarna]

I've not gone back to review, but as I recall, in the simulations PC Neil would not have a direct line of sight (he's to the north, and there's a bend in the road that would block his view).

Also, acoustics are weird. When I was walking into work today there was a fire alarm going off in one of the buildings I walk past. I didn't hear it until very close, as the buildings blocked the sound (granted, there was also some traffic, so modern ambient sound levels are different, but still, the point is, sounds we might expect someone to hear can very easily not be heard due to the specifics of the layout of the buildings and so forth). But, I could hear for a long way once I passed it. So either the sound carried in that direction, or once I noticed it, I could track it. In either case, two things changed, my position and my awareness at the time. Both apply to PC Neil.

The other thing to take into account other than the physical distances is that PC Neil, after finding a body, is now actively seeking others - so he is in "searching" mode (searching for both signs of the perpetrator and for assistance). When Cross/Lechmere and Paul walk through Buck's Row, PC Neil is just doing his routine patrol - he is in two very different states.

Given the distance between him and the carmen, I'm not surprised that he would not have noticed them.

The distances can be worked out by going here and choosing the "OS 25 inch 1892-1914" overlay, and measuring the distances using the measurement tool (upper right corner, looks like a protractor and a triangle ruler). The distance, I suspect, will be roughly similar, but the street layout isn't straight, so the sounds won't carry the same.

Also, it is possible that PC Neil saw PC Thain's lantern, or saw him as that end was lit by gas lighting. Describing it has "hearing him" rather than "seeing him" could just be either a turn of phrase, or a genuine confusion over which sense drew his attention to PC Thain in the first place.

While I don't claim the positions in the simulations are exact, rather they are rough estimates based upon my own calculations, I do know that others who have done similar things place PC Neil in the same general area (to the north, somewhere in Wodeham Street, and note how it is not straight but has a bend to it, unlike the view up to where PC Thain was from the crime scene).

Also, while Police issue boots were I think a bit noisy, the carmen wouldn't be wearing the same thing, so their footwear would make less noise. I'm not entirely sure how true that is, though (that police boots were more noisy than common footwear, but it's often put out there as if it were fact - but is it, a fact I mean?)

- Jeff

Nice response Jeff, I place Neil to the north of Bucks Row, before he enters , very possibly in the now gone Queen Ann Street, which certainly did have a bend.
He could also have been in the northern Arm of Thomas.


Steve

[JeffHamm]

Nice response Jeff, I place Neil to the north of Bucks Row, before he enters , very possibly in the now gone Queen Ann Street, which certainly did have a bend.
He could also have been in the northern Arm of Thomas.


Steve

Thanks Steve. Yes, I think a few years ago when we were discussing this in depth we both came to similar conclusions as to his location at the time the carmen exited the area. Differences in exact estimated locations were, in the bigger picture, inconsequential to the flow of events. I recall being quite impressed how, I think there were three of us all working on it using slightly different beats and patrol speeds and so forth, and the results were pretty robust and not contingent upon picking a certain set of assumed values. That is always a relief, and builds confidence in the inferences one can draw.

- Jeff

[Fiver]

We read of PC Neil hearing a PC from some 150 yards away etc. I've looked at Jeff's simulation of Bucks Row. If Neil heard a PC from 150 yards away why not Cross or Paul when it appears they were closer? Was there not a direct line of sight at any time even though this would have been impeded by darkness?

At any given time what was possibly the shortest distance between Neil and Cross/Paul whilst the latter were walking either pre or post discovery?

If they were 50 yards apart, Robert Paul could not have had a direct line of sight on Lechmere until Paul entered Bucks Row. We don't know at what distance Paul heard or saw Lechmere, he was never asked and he never volunteered the information.

PC Neil heard PC Thain at about 130 yards. Charles Lechmere estimated that Robert Paul was 30 to 40 yards behind him when he heard Paul. We don't know how loud Paul's footsteps were compared to PC Thain's, We don't know how good PC Neil's hearing was compared to Lechmere's.

But there is also science to consider.

* Based on the shape of the ears, we heard noises in front of us better than we hear noises behind us.
* The human brain tends to filter out noises it considers unimportant.
* Auditory masking means louder sounds tend to mask softer sounds. Lechmere was walking, PC Neil was standing still.
* Auditory sensing is reduced when walking.
* Once Lechmere spotted something ahead of him, his brain would have focused on identifying it - from just a shape, to maybe a tarpaulin, to it's a woman. Once hie perceived it was a woman, his visual perception load dropped significantly, which science tells us is exactly when Lechmere would be most likely to become much better at noticing auditory stimuli.

So Lechmere likely heard Paul at more than 40 yards, but only noticed that he was hearing Paul when Paul got to within 40 yards.

[FrankO]

It's a very real possibility that when Neil entered Bucks Row, the carmen were either about to leave it, or already had done, and were possibly talking to Mizen.

Hi Steve,

Small thing perhaps, but I don't think the carmen were already talking to Mizen when Neil turned into Buck's Row. If they would have, Mizen would be too close on Neil's tail for Thain to have come & gone before Mizen would arrive. Of course, it would depend on whether Neil surfaced from Queen Ann Street or the northern end of Thomas Street, but I don't think the carmen had reached Mizen yet.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

And as we can’t take the inquest testimonies as being verbatim I still think it at least possible that Cross might actually have said something like “I heard footsteps approaching then I saw the man when he was 30 or 40 yards away.” Then this got condensed by reporters to Cross ‘hearing’ the man 30 or 40 yards away. How would anyone predict a distance from hearing only? When someone describes someone as being 30-40 yards away isn’t it more likely that this was a conclusion made visually?

So I think it at least possible and plausible that Cross heard the footsteps, then waited a few seconds before seeing Paul 30-40 yards away. After all, to Cross giving his testimony, I can’t see any short delays appearing worth mentioning. If he’d heard Paul then seen him 10 seconds later then what difference could that have made to his testimony at the time?

I reckon that a percentage of what we know in this case and others that we get from inquest testimony could be incorrect due to a slight difference between what was reported and what was actually said.