A little help tequested

[Elamarna]

Hi all

As most of you know I am doing this long project on Bucks Row..
Part of this includes the possible beat of PCNeil.

While I have used a version proposed on the thread in this section; I am aware that CSI Whitechapel had a map too.

Now the request. My copy of this book is currently in storage along with many of my other possessions at present and this book not being available on kindle I am unable to check it out.
Could someone kindly send me details of the route used in the book. Just a list of the roads and order will do.

Many thanks

Steve

Ps sorry for typo in thread title. Only excuse doing this on my phone.

[The Station Cat]

Hi all

As most of you know I am doing this long project on Bucks Row..
Part of this includes the possible beat of PCNeil.

While I have used a version proposed on the thread in this section; I am aware that CSI Whitechapel had a map too.

Now the request. My copy of this book is currently in storage along with many of my other possessions at present and this book not being available on kindle I am unable to check it out.
Could someone kindly send me details of the route used in the book. Just a list of the roads and order will do.

Many thanks


Steve

Ps sorry for typo in thread title. Only excuse doing this on my phone.

Hi Steve,

I have a copy of this book and am not 100% convinced that the beat included is correct, it just doesn't seem long enough. I strongly suspect that the best you could hope for is the on included in the newspaper documented in the other thread. If this helps?

In CSI they just have Neil walking in a circle up Baker's Row onto White's Row towards Bucks Row, then down Brady Street onto Whitechapel Road, then round again to Baker's Row (including Thomas Street & Court Street), but missing out Thomas Street and Queen Anne Road?

Gordon.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

I have a copy of this book and am not 100% convinced that the beat included is correct, it just doesn't seem long enough. I strongly suspect that the best you could hope for is the on included in the newspaper documented in the other thread. If this helps?

In CSI they just have Neil walking in a circle up Baker's Row onto White's Row towards Bucks Row, then down Brady Street onto Whitechapel Road, then round again to Baker's Row (including Thomas Street & Court Street), but missing out Thomas Street and Queen Anne Road?

Gordon.

Thank you so much Gordon. All my collection is in boxes in North London and I am currently in South London .

That is very helpful . Seems few ever picked up on the report of the beats given at the time or they just did not believe them if they did. My bet is that just missed it.
Yrs for me too it is too short. The route we spoke of last week when measured and then converted to 3mph takes 29+ mins. That's in keeping with Neil's comments about being there 30 mins before.

That route means that for Neil not to see them he must be in Whitechapel road surely and Mizen must arrive same time as him with no time for Thain to arrive first.

Many thanks

Steve

[Pierre]

Thank you so much Gordon. All my collection is in boxes in North London and I am currently in South London .

That is very helpful . Seems few ever picked up on the report of the beats given at the time or they just did not believe them if they did. My bet is that just missed it.
Yrs for me too it is too short. The route we spoke of last week when measured and then converted to 3mph takes 29+ mins. That's in keeping with Neil's comments about being there 30 mins before.

That route means that for Neil not to see them he must be in Whitechapel road surely and Mizen must arrive same time as him with no time for Thain to arrive first.

Many thanks

Steve

Hi Steve,

How long time would that have given the killer to continue with the mutilations without the police passing through Buckīs Row, if Lechmere or Paul would not have showed up?

Pierre

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

How long time would that have given the killer to continue with the mutilations without the police passing through Buckīs Row, if Lechmere or Paul would not have showed up?

Pierre

Piere

Hard to be pricise it looks like there was a 30 minute beat. So if he struck soon after Neil passed almost that long.
However I am assuming that you are thinking the attack must have taken place between 3.30 and 3.40 . (Again I am making an assumption here that Paul's timing was wrong, if not the time of the attack could be 3.40 or later).
If we assume he was disturbed and for the sake of debate say it was not lechmere, then if no one had passed he would in my view have had another 5 minutes plus before Neil was due back. However if he left by going west he must have left earlier so as not to pass Neil.

If however we accept the beat in CSI WHITECHAPEL the time goes up to around 7 minutes until he has to go.


Steve

[Pierre]

Piere

Hard to be pricise it looks like there was a 30 minute beat. So if he struck soon after Neil passed almost that long.
However I am assuming that you are thinking the attack must have taken place between 3.30 and 3.40 . (Again I am making an assumption here that Paul's timing was wrong, if not the time of the attack could be 3.40 or later).
If we assume he was disturbed and for the sake of debate say it was not lechmere, then if no one had passed he would in my view have had another 5 minutes plus before Neil was due back. However if he left by going west he must have left earlier so as not to pass Neil.

If however we accept the beat in CSI WHITECHAPEL the time goes up to around 7 minutes until he has to go.

Steve

Thanks a lot Steve. So he could have continued for about 5 minutes, had not the carmen passed through Buckīs Row.

Do you think that he knew Buckīs Row and how busy the street was?

Do you think he planned to work undisturbed?

If we compare Buckīs Row to the other murder sites, donīt you think that he made a mistake choosing an open street where people could pass?

If so, why did he choose it? Wasnīt he familiar with this street?

Lechmere must have been.

Cheers, Pierre

[Elamarna]

Thanks a lot Steve. So he could have continued for about 5 minutes, had not the carmen passed through Buckīs Row.

Do you think that he knew Buckīs Row and how busy the street was?


Do you think he planned to work undisturbed?



If we compare Buckīs Row to the other murder sites, donīt you think that he made a mistake choosing an open street where people could pass?

If so, why did he choose it? Wasnīt he familiar with this street?

Lechmere must have been.

Cheers, Pierre

Pierre

I really do not think he was that aware of the situation.

The opportunity presented itself and he took it.

Steve

[Bridewell]

If you're looking for definitive advice on the length of beats then probably Monty is your man.

Taking timings based on a metronomic circuit time is problematic though, I think. An officer can be diverted or delayed in all sorts of ways, so that a first circuit of 25 minutes might be followed by one of 35 or vice versa.

I'm not sure if 19th century officers had to make points, but it would be surprising if they didn't in an era well before the development of personal radio.

[Bridewell]

If we compare Buckīs Row to the other murder sites, donīt you think that he made a mistake choosing an open street where people could pass?

If so, why did he choose it? Wasn't he familiar with this street?

Lechmere must have been.

Cheers, Pierre

Good point. Well made.

Whoever he was though, his risk assessment should perhaps be considered pretty good as he committed the crime and got away.

[Elamarna]

If you're looking for definitive advice on the length of beats then probably Monty is your man.

Taking timings based on a metronomic circuit time is problematic though, I think. An officer can be diverted or delayed in all sorts of ways, so that a first circuit of 25 minutes might be followed by one of 35 or vice versa.

I'm not sure if 19th century officers had to make points, but it would be surprising if they didn't in an era well before the development of personal radio.

Hi Bridewell

Indeed I have read most of Monty's stuff and his input on threads relating to the subject, and have used much of that in my work.
It does seem however has if the actually beat was staring us in the face since 1888 when it was published in the Echo, 21st September 1888 and few seem to have noticed it.
However it could be incorrect and thus the reason I am checking the other possible alternatives to that route.

I agree that we cannot be absolutely correct on this at all times; however we need to have some baseline to work to, and I fully accept that speeds over short distances may vary greatly, however I think a difference of 10 minutes is unlikely unless a major incident or several smaller ones occurred.

On the tables I have used in The Bucks Row Project i have suggested the police walked at 2.5-3mph average pace, Monty has said often the night speed was meant to be 3mph; however I have included fast speeds as well. I have not included slower speeds as given the objective of the work, such will only give long times than the 2.5mph and are thus redundant for the purpose. And as I have stated several times I am not looking at absolute certainties but at what was possible.

In the case of PC Neil, for instance, given that he did not see or was seen by Paul and Lechmere, what was the fastest reasonable time(walking at the set speed, no faster) that he could have reach Nichols body after the two Carmen left it.

when i have looked at Mizen and Thain, for instance I have allowed a faster speed for their times, given there was a degree of urgency required in their actions.

Actually some research overnight has strongly supported the statement of Neil that he was in Bucks Row about 5 minutes before he passed the Slaughter house in Winthrop Street. (He says about 3.15 and 3.20 of course; but i do not feel we can work to such absolutes as that, only relative times between points disclosed in sources from the event.).

Cheers


Steve

[Elamarna]

Good point. Well made.

Whoever he was though, his risk assessment should perhaps be considered pretty good as he committed the crime and got away.

Just to clarify my earlier reply to Pierre, i feel that the killer was not new to Bucks Row, at the very least he knew of the possible exits, mainly to the Western end of the street.

Either it was pretty god as you say Bridewell or he was just lucky. I still go with the later view.


Steve