A question regarding a Knighthood

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

I have a question that would like some ideas and thoughts to mull over.

I believe I am correct in saying that Monro was and still is,to date(?), the only ex-Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police who has never recieved the honour of a Knighthood? Why?

From what I can see from his appointment after Warren, and the work that he did whilst Warren was in charge himself, he has done nothing that would disqualify him from recieving such an honour. I may be wrong. I realise that the dedication he had for the everyday policeman and the conditions of work they had may not have enamoured him to some, but in being presented the Commissionership, the political faith in him was not only restored but shown that in being chosen, the powers that be believed him to be the best man for the job.

I would also ask another question in relation to all of this. In the written memoirs discovered a while back in Monro's family cupboard, as it were, which do not mention JTR, is there any reference to retirement, knighthood etc? If so, is there a possibility that the person(s) who are in posession of these documents could kindly post any of this material on these boards for our perusal? (I do not factually know who it is that currently posesses them, but presume the family has ownership). If not, would it be possible for the said people to again contact the family for permission to post on here?

I look forward to all ideas and replies.

With respect to all parties concerned.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil H]

Some people have, can and do, refuse the honour - for personal, political or moral reasons.

I don't know whether anyone would do so in the much more socially conscious C19th, but they do today.

It occurs to me that you have to be NOMINATED for an honour, so if those in the Home Office wished ill of Munro they could have decided not to put his name forward. He had quarrelled with warren and left his post after a further argument, so maybe that was the rweason.

You ask good and pertinent questions though.

Phil H

[Phil Carter]

Some people have, can and do, refuse the honour - for personal, political or moral reasons.

I don't know whether anyone would do so in the much more socially conscious C19th, but they do today.

It occurs to me that you have to be NOMINATED for an honour, so if those in the Home Office wished ill of Munro they could have decided not to put his name forward. He had quarrelled with warren and left his post after a further argument, so maybe that was the rweason.

You ask good and pertinent questions though.

Phil H

Hello Phil H,

Thanks for the excellent reply.

Yes, you are quite correct that nomination is of course the due course..but I admit to being puzzled as to why specifically only Monro would have enraged the Home Office enough to have warrented being overlooked and or even snubbed re nomination? The Home Office have, since, never taken this action since (as far as I am aware..please correct me if need be) in conjunction with this particular post.

The quarrel with Warren was pre Commissionership, and it should be mentioned that he was still working in the background for the Met before his appointment to Commissioner, after his resignation in connection with his series of disagreements with Warren, no?

Religious views can also something to do with refusing to accept honours. We know that Monro was of the same ilk as Anderson, yet we know that Anderson accepted HIS knighthood.
It may also be mentioned that some Freemasons refuse to accept honours, in conjunction with in house tradition, I am led to believe. (again, I could be wrong here).
Are there many personal views you have heard of for refusing awards Phil H?
Anti-Royalists of course may object on grounds of political principle. I do not believe we have reason to believe Monro falls into this catagory, though?

A personal friend recieved a CBE a few years ago before his death for his work at the NPL (National Physical Laboratory, Teddington) over many years, and when I asked him the general feeling within HIS workplace regarding awards, he said that he knew of nobody who refused an honour based on any personal views.

You mention the political climate of the late 1800's, and feel fairly sure that an objector would be a very rare being in those days, I agree.

So perhaps the family and or those in posession of the Monro papers can shed a little light on this subject?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil H]

In my day as a civil servent, (John Major - I think - changed things), certain military ranks and levels of civil servant automatically got a "gong" to assist with their standing and authority. Whether that applied in Munro's day, I know not.

A bot on the reputation, as it were, might mean that an honour was withheld. Noel Coward's knighthood was withheld for many years because he was believed to have avoided tax during the war (or something similar); John Gielgud's because he was done for soliciting.

I know of people today who would refuse an honour if offered. In terms of famous people, I believe Paul Scofield (the actor) always declined offers.

Phil H

[Robert]

Hi Phil H

Do you mean, Paul Scofield was offered the same honour more than once? I had always somehow assumed that once someone turned down an honour, they'd ruled themselves out permanently.

[Phil H]

I don't know. But when you are THAT eminent in your field, I suppose they might recheck after a time. As far as I know Scofield never accepted honours, certainly not a "Sir".

Phil H

[Sally]

For those interested, details of honours can be found here:

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil,

I've often wondered about this myself. It certainly doesn't seem that Monro turned down any honors, but instead was refused them. I haven't read his memoir, but it's been described as the attempt of an angry man to defend himself. And apparently something behind the scenes occurred that caused his colleagues to view him with some measure of disgust. I can't remember specifics right now, but I read something to that effect. Monro disgraced himself in some way.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

upset

Hello Phil, Tom. I was under the impression that his resignation had upset Her majesty?

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

James Monro C.B., variously described as an honest and decent man, badly blotted his copybook during the Cleveland Street affair.

A family account tells of him being offered a knighthood [KCB] as an inducement to toe the government line—something we know he refused to do.

Monro's resignation had little to do with pensions, and Lord Salisbury, in writing about the matter to Queen Victoria, really stuck the boot in about him.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil H]

That is VERY interesting.

The fact that he had the CB (Companion of the Bath - not far below a knighthood) shows that he was not against honours per se.

Phil H

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Monro received the CB in the 1887 Queen's Birthday Honours, whereas Edward Jenkinson, whom Monro had helped displace as Britain's "spymaster-general", was awarded the KCB.

Robert Anderson received the KCB in the 1901 King's Birthday Honours—thirteen years to the day after the Millers Court murder.

Lucky for some.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hi All,

James Monro C.B., variously described as an honest and decent man, badly blotted his copybook during the Cleveland Street affair.

A family account tells of him being offered a knighthood [KCB] as an inducement to toe the government line—something we know he refused to do.

Monro's resignation had little to do with pensions, and Lord Salisbury, in writing about the matter to Queen Victoria, really stuck the boot in about him.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon, all,

Thank you for your postings, tha above is indeed most interesting. Simon, if you have the chance to post the "putting the boot in" quote from Salisbury to the Queen, I'd be most interested in seeing it. And when was this exactly?

Phil H, Tom, Lynn, Robert, Sally, Simon.. am I mistaken when I presume that the memoirs have never been seen in full? Do we know whom to apply to or through which channel to ask the family in order to see the memoirs? I am sure they make very interesting reading, though not referrring to JTR, the WM etc.
Perhaps Adam Wood could get into contact with Keith Skinner and propose the above to the family, a la Swanson Marginalia history?

In trying to understand Monro the man a little better, it would be of great help, I believe. The political ongoings behind the scenes are varied and often at this time.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hi All,

James Monro C.B., variously described as an honest and decent man, badly blotted his copybook during the Cleveland Street affair.

A family account tells of him being offered a knighthood [KCB] as an inducement to toe the government line—something we know he refused to do.

Monro's resignation had little to do with pensions, and Lord Salisbury, in writing about the matter to Queen Victoria, really stuck the boot in about him.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

Four questions.

1)Was it Monro who brought in Abberline to the Cleveland Street Affair?

2)What exactly was the government line in reference to the affair? Was it the protection of the various titled gentlemen involved?

3) Am I correct in saying it was reported in an American newspaper the involvement of PAV, re Cleveland St?

4) Can this(3) be something that refers be a part of the answer to question 2?

Thanks in advance.

best wishes

Phil

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Monro writings have been referenced by a number of authors, though never reproduced in full.

As they appear to be neither a state secret nor particularly contentious a Ripperologist "Monro" edition would be most welcome.

Regards,

Simon