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[robhouse]

I wish you could make up your mind on whether your queries refer to Kosminski as a "likely suspect" or the "prime suspect".

I am using the terms loosely and interchangeably I admit. My intention is to say he is the top suspect (in my opinion).

However, when other credible sources are introduced and objectively permitted to inform the debate and more importantly, the research investigation of Jack the Ripper, I am inclined to question Anderson's version of events. In my opinion based on further documentary proof, I would go further and say that his version left to prosperity was politically motivated.

Well, that is your opinion. I do not agree with it, although you will find many people on here who do agree with you.

What Clutterbuck did in 2002 was to document an alternative, equally viable and concurrent internal police investigation of the Whitechapel murders conducted by the same men who gave us Kosminski as a "definitely ascertained fact", which of course we now know wasn't the definitive story.

This is not what Clutterbuck's thesis is about, as I am sure you know. Clutterbuck's thesis was a detailed analysis of the methods and structure of the Special Branch. As an aside he mentioned that a few entries in the Special Branch registers mentioned references to the Whitechapel murders. I am not going to go into a detailed description here, and I do not have my notes on it, but this in no way means that the Special Branch was "conducting" a "concurrent internal" investigation of the murders. The investigation of the Whitechapel Murders fell to the CID. The Special Branch collected (from a variety of sources) intelligence, tips, information etc. from informants, regular citizens, PCs etc. Certain types of information was considered to fall under Special Branch jurisdiction, namely, threats to domestic security from Irish terrorists and related topics. That some of this information had "cross-over" with the Whitechapel murders is in no way surprising. Indeed, it would have been surprising if in all the data collected and indexed by the SB there was NO mention of the Whitechapel murders. This in no way suggests that the SB was conducting an investigation of the Whitechapel murders.

That is not to say that they were not involved in it somehow. In my estimation, they would have been more likely involved in press manipulation perhaps.

The Polish Jew theory is unsustainable as the primary direction in Ripper studies and criminology because of the known presence of other historically contrary and legitimate police sources, which are not being accounted for.

But I cannot expect that you or Kosminski supporters will consider or accept any of these points as it appears your minds are already made up. And just to be clear, I do not support Marriott's version either.

I admit I have not read your book, so I cannot guess as to what theories you present in it that diminish Kozminski as a "top" suspect.. I have always assumed that part of the reason that several other police officials say things contrary to Swanson and Anderson is that the Police contrived to keep aspects of the investigation top secret, so to speak, and the Kozminski inquiry, in my opinion, was one of these aspects... that was known only to top officials at CID. I.e. not known by Reid, Abberline, Smith, etc. Or Macnaghten for that matter.

RH

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks.

That certainly helps to clarify your opinion.

The world now awaits with bated breath any evidence you may have in support of that opinion.

Regards,

Simon

No simon that simply is the position. If you would like to demonstrate where its wrong I'm happy to take that on board..

But then if I wasnt right there wont be so many of you trying to disprove the Kosminski theory, irronically it is the fact that so many of you who disagree with each other on every aspect of the case that consider KOSMINSKI the main suspect to disprove that proves what I say is correct

Ironic

Yours Jeff

[Monty]

I don't think Stewart does Abby however, in a nutshell, the parade kinda runs against procedure.

Then again, we are gleaming this from 2 sources, Anderson and Swanson (via the Macnaghten Memoranda.

Not complete reports.

However I'm afraid its a lil more than a nutshell.

Monty

[Abby Normal]

Can someone in a nut shell please explain to me why Stewart Evans does not believe the ID of Kosminski took place. I am truly baffled by this.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks.

That certainly helps to clarify your opinion.

The world now awaits with bated breath any evidence you may have in support of that opinion.

Regards,

Simon

[Jeff Leahy]

Rob,

I wish you could make up your mind on whether your queries refer to Kosminski as a "likely suspect" or the "prime suspect". There is a difference, a vast and significant difference that colours the historical context of this debate.

I don't have a problem with accepting Kosminski, or any Polish Jew, as a possible suspect for the Whitechapel murders. The evidence is there for all to see. The writing on the wall if you will.

Then lets make a very simple process as clear as possible for you.

There are over 150 potential suspects for being Jack the Ripper..

Out of these thre are may be twenty thirty that are credible...some great out siders like Bury or Cream or Cutbush

But basically we have four leading contenders because they were put forward by the officers that investigated the case and thus had access to all the files, that existed at the time now largely destroyed (yes we know it hurts Trevor but its called reality) So these guys new more than everyone else

That leaves: Kosminski, Druitt, Chapman and Tumbelty..

And if we ignore the sources and go back to looking at these individuals and the crimes committed by JtR...

Then one person comes out as the most probable or at least the suspect on which the fewest arguemnets can be put together to dismiss him..

That name is KOSMINSKI

However whether you wish to call him the prime Suspect, the leading suspect or even the only reasonable suspect in the frame..there is still not enough evidence to prove he was Jack the Ripper..

So of a poor crop he remains the best and most convincing suspect we have Based on a simple process of allimination.

I trust that helps clarify

Yours Jeff

[auspirograph]

To auspirograph
"Are you suggesting the primacy of a Polish Jew line of police inquiry in the Whitechapel murders despite developments introduced with Clutterbuck's thesis?"

I am still awaiting your answer about this. What "developments introduced with Clutterbuck's thesis" have any bearing on the Polish Jew line of police inquiry, or on Kozminski's candidicy as a likely suspect?

Rob,

I wish you could make up your mind on whether your queries refer to Kosminski as a "likely suspect" or the "prime suspect". There is a difference, a vast and significant difference that colours the historical context of this debate.

I don't have a problem with accepting Kosminski, or any Polish Jew, as a possible suspect for the Whitechapel murders. The evidence is there for all to see. The writing on the wall if you will.

However, when other credible sources are introduced and objectively permitted to inform the debate and more importantly, the research investigation of Jack the Ripper, I am inclined to question Anderson's version of events. In my opinion based on further documentary proof, I would go further and say that his version left to prosperity was politically motivated. That is to say, that serial murder investigations cannot be isolated from politically sanctioned police resources that fund them any more than the nature of serial killers can be isolated from their violent precedents.

What Clutterbuck did in 2002 was to document an alternative, equally viable and concurrent internal police investigation of the Whitechapel murders conducted by the same men who gave us Kosminski as a "definitely ascertained fact", which of course we now know wasn't the definitive story. Nor did Anderson's 'consensus' go beyond the senior police officers who are the direct source for the Polish Jew theory.

I am suggesting that you read my book, Jack the Ripper and Black Magic: Victorian Conspiracy Theories, Secret Societies and the Supernatural Mystique of the Whitechapel Murders which fully examines Clutterbuck's thesis, introduces further supporting evidence and explains why Kosminski can only be regarded as one suspect among many in the research investigation of Jack the Ripper.

The Polish Jew theory is unsustainable as the primary direction in Ripper studies and criminology because of the known presence of other historically contrary and legitimate police sources, which are not being accounted for.

But I cannot expect that you or Kosminski supporters will consider or accept any of these points as it appears your minds are already made up. And just to be clear, I do not support Marriott's version either.

[Jeff Leahy]

Oh so you have no interest and all those worthy points I rasied in that long post yesterday are of no interest to you that is strange.

Well I guess its the only comment you could have made because the truth hurts and when confronted with issues that have a direct bearing on your beleifs, your thoughts and most of all your book inferring that Kosminski was Scotland yards prime suspect I would want to run and hide to.

Trevor you have to except that despite the odd supporting post from Phil Carter your position in the Ripper community has become a solo one..

Take your premise that the torn apron discovered in Goulston street was in fact placed there by Cathrine Eddows after use as a Giant sanitary towl with the biggest flying wings known to man?

I have been unable to find one ripperologist willing to suport this theory? And was even subject of humour in the recent podcast..Obviously not helped by the fact that it was pionted out to you that Cathrine Eddows was actually carrying small pieces of clothe for that very purpose.

Yet you steam rolled on with your theory ignoring everyones advice because if the killer did indeed drop the apron it meant he was heading EAST not back towards the docks which would have fitted your own theory

So naturally the community (in-fort though it may be) naturally has become cinacal to all your theories even though this might be a little unfair..

Sometime its just better to admit when your wrong and fess up.

There's a classic Black Adder Sketch were Captain red beard Rum claims 'all the other Captains require a crew, I say you dont' you're currently in the metophorical position of going around the Isle of Wright until everyone gets giddy (Those of you who watch Black Adder will know the scene)

Yours Jeff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOEehh_i_v8 for those of you who dont know Black Adder

[Trevor Marriott]

If you are wondering about the silence... I can say, from my end, it is because you have not raised a single point that I think is worthy of a response. Your ability to interpret and analyze sources is non-existent. And I have no interest in your opinion on the case.

Oh so you have no interest and all those worthy points I rasied in that long post yesterday are of no interest to you that is strange.

Well I guess its the only comment you could have made because the truth hurts and when confronted with issues that have a direct bearing on your beleifs, your thoughts and most of all your book inferring that Kosminski was Scotland yards prime suspect I would want to run and hide to.

[robhouse]

If you are wondering about the silence... I can say, from my end, it is because you have not raised a single point that I think is worthy of a response. Your ability to interpret and analyze sources is non-existent. And I have no interest in your opinion on the case.

[Trevor Marriott]

"Who's"

Oh the silence is deafening just as it was when I raised the issues yesterday about the marginalia and its authenticity.

You are one of those who now find themselves up the swanson river without a paddle.

[robhouse]

Whose the buffoon ? you read and interpret it how you want dont you. Well read it again !

Exonerate the last two these being kosminski and ostrog, the no 1 he refers to is Druitt whats your problem ?

"Who's"

[Trevor Marriott]

"One has to look back at where all of this started that was The MM and as is known this was the first mention of the name Kosminski. Then we have to look at the Aberconway Version in which MM writes that Kosminski can be exonerated. Now that should have been the end of anything further to do with anyone named Kosminski." -- Trevor Marriott

Trevor, as has been pointed out to me, you apparently did not read the actual Aberconway version, did you? The depth of your ignorance is truly astonishing. If you had you might have read the following (emphasis mine):

"Personally, after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2. but I have always held strong opinions regarding no 1., and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become."

also:

"A much more rational and workable theory, to my way of thinking, is that the ‘rippers’ brain gave way altogether after his awful glut in Millers Court and that he then committed suicide, or, as a less likely alternative, was found to be so helplessly insane by his relatives, that they, suspecting the worst, had him confined in some Lunatic Asylum."

This clearly indicates that he thinks Kozminski is a possible suspect, although "less likely" than Druitt... in his personal opinion. You are truly a buffoon. Please keep your promise now and stay away from the message boards, as you do nothing but disrupt.


To auspirograph
"Are you suggesting the primacy of a Polish Jew line of police inquiry in the Whitechapel murders despite developments introduced with Clutterbuck's thesis?"

I am still awaiting your answer about this. What "developments introduced with Clutterbuck's thesis" have any bearing on the Polish Jew line of police inquiry, or on Kozminski's candidicy as a likely suspect?

Rob H

Whose the buffoon ? you read and interpret it how you want dont you. Well read it again !

Exonerate the last two these being kosminski and ostrog, the no 1 he refers to is Druitt whats your problem ?

[lynn cates]

mixed up

Hello Jonathan. Thanks. And I tend towards the conjecture that elements of these Lawende attempts at identification were mixed up with each other.

Cheers.
LC

[robhouse]

"One has to look back at where all of this started that was The MM and as is known this was the first mention of the name Kosminski. Then we have to look at the Aberconway Version in which MM writes that Kosminski can be exonerated. Now that should have been the end of anything further to do with anyone named Kosminski." -- Trevor Marriott

Trevor, as has been pointed out to me, you apparently did not read the actual Aberconway version, did you? The depth of your ignorance is truly astonishing. If you had you might have read the following (emphasis mine):

"Personally, after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2. but I have always held strong opinions regarding no 1., and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become."

also:

"A much more rational and workable theory, to my way of thinking, is that the ‘rippers’ brain gave way altogether after his awful glut in Millers Court and that he then committed suicide, or, as a less likely alternative, was found to be so helplessly insane by his relatives, that they, suspecting the worst, had him confined in some Lunatic Asylum."

This clearly indicates that he thinks Kozminski is a possible suspect, although "less likely" than Druitt... in his personal opinion. You are truly a buffoon. Please keep your promise now and stay away from the message boards, as you do nothing but disrupt.


To auspirograph
"Are you suggesting the primacy of a Polish Jew line of police inquiry in the Whitechapel murders despite developments introduced with Clutterbuck's thesis?"

I am still awaiting your answer about this. What "developments introduced with Clutterbuck's thesis" have any bearing on the Polish Jew line of police inquiry, or on Kozminski's candidicy as a likely suspect?

Rob H