Seaside Home?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

For the record, As stated.. I wasn't poking nor feigning. As for tiger.. well.. I've never been afraid of any form of the cat species.

Hope the Pimms was good. Hope you aren't at the seaside near Brighton or Bournemouth..the traffic is awful.

regards

Phil

[PaulB]

Hello Paul,

What is read as rude and offensive can be a matter of personal judgement. Should I read that of Monty's reply? I will not because I do not think that way. Perhaps he is trying to be funny? Derogatory remarks were noted, that was all. I commented not upon them. As far as "targeting" specific individuals... I think you need to see the context in another light. Cynicism is all well and good. Comes with age, as is well known. As far as making my intentions clearer, I am human, and I do things in my way. Not always the way others do things. I have failings, as you do. I explained completely in the 2nd post to him. Using the words GENUINELY , and "surprised". If that isnt good enough for you, then that is for you to deal with, not me.

I also noted that the thread was being ignored.. actually.

Hello Rob,

Did YOU also feel offended? Personally? Well now, that does surprise me.. because you are well aware that I genuinely looked forward with great interest to your book and told you so many many times, also wishing you all the best with it.

For the 2nd and final time, I will not be commenting on the remark further. It has been explained sufficiently to my satisfaction. And I made it. So I should know.

I suggest that this side topic is rested, for everyone's sake.

regards

Phil

Okay, fine, Phil, when you stated that Aaron Kosminski should have been laid to rest years ago, and that he’s kept alive by people who will continue to "milk" it while they think they can get away with it, and who keeps the “Magic Roundabout” turning like a monkey turning the organ grinder's, er, grinder, you weren't talking about Rob House or me. I'm still not clear who this obstructive organ grinder is, or who the monkey is, or who's doing the milking, or winding up the Kosminski Magic Roundabout and denying the theory a quiet funeral.

The subject is laid to rest. You think the maginalia is "worthless" because the story it tells isn't confirmed by the existing files. I think the marginalia cannot be considered "worthless" at all, but especially when the surviving files are seriously depleted and don't contain anything about suspects. Let the public decide.

[Phil Carter]

Let the public decide.

Hello Paul,

Which has always been my intention, as previously stated. And they can take their time. The marginalia has been in the public eye 24years or so. The name Kosminski, a few decades longer.

I would like to ask you something, quite theoretical and without any misdirected thoughts as to the intention.. so you get that right BEFORE I write it... (haha)

If, it should turn out, through research, that one murder with the C5 were solved, by name and documentary evidence, depending on whom in the C5 it pertained to, and was not Kosminski... Would this affect your view of the Marginalia/Seaside Home, if the evidence uncovered had no reference to it, If so, how? (Obviously, if not, why not?)

It's a theoretical and speculatory question...and not detailed in the form of documentary evidence as such at this time, as we speak..but would be found that way..
The only caveats are that one of the crimes is solved as near as can be, with sufficient damning evidence, and there is no sign of the Seaside Home connection within that damning evidence. We would not, by the way, presume that the killer was responsible for all five murders. It would be specific to one only. (For Stride and perhaps Kelly, this would perhaps be easier to take into account.)

I would be genuinely interested in your view on the matter. Thank you in advance.

regards

Phil

[robhouse]

I can reply to that question. It would not alter my opinion of the marginalia at all, since I take what Swanson wrote to be essentially true. It would simply mean that Anderson and Swanson were wrong in suspecting Kozminski so strongly and that someone else was, in fact, Jack the Ripper. It would not mean that the identification never took place, nor would it invalidate what Anderson or Swanson wrote on the matter.

RH

[PaulB]

I can reply to that question. It would not alter my opinion of the marginalia at all, since I take what Swanson wrote to be essentially true. It would simply mean that Anderson and Swanson were wrong in suspecting Kozminski so strongly and that someone else was, in fact, Jack the Ripper. It would not mean that the identification never took place, nor would it invalidate what Anderson or Swanson wrote on the matter.

RH

That succinctly states my position too. Indeed, that would be the case if all c5 murders were by other people.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Rob and Paul,

Thank you both kindly for your replies.

regards

Phil

[The Good Michael]

I can reply to that question. It would not alter my opinion of the marginalia at all, since I take what Swanson wrote to be essentially true. It would simply mean that Anderson and Swanson were wrong in suspecting Kozminski so strongly and that someone else was, in fact, Jack the Ripper. It would not mean that the identification never took place, nor would it invalidate what Anderson or Swanson wrote on the matter.

This is precisely my take. They told the truth as they knew it. Often one person's truth is different from another's.

Mike

[auspirograph]

By the Seaside

I can reply to that question. It would not alter my opinion of the marginalia at all, since I take what Swanson wrote to be essentially true. It would simply mean that Anderson and Swanson were wrong in suspecting Kozminski so strongly and that someone else was, in fact, Jack the Ripper. It would not mean that the identification never took place, nor would it invalidate what Anderson or Swanson wrote on the matter.

RH

But people have been saying this for years. Now that the Kominskites, and other Polish Jew primacy advocates have their backs against the wall, they want to claim credit for that too???

What a strange world Ripperology is...

Indeed, that is the issue, if Anderson and Swanson were right and authentic, as I also believe they were, the strongly defined "ascertained fact" and highly promoted best fits all Gordian knot of Martin Fido misdirects the research investigation of the true identity of Jack the Ripper. Or at least, what actually did take place.

The question has become based on the development and discovery of further official and primary source material; why would they do that?

Phil,

Surely you're not preparing the way for the research and documentary evidence of Trevor Marriott, that promises to blow Kosminski and all other suspects out of the water in his upcoming book on the Secret Police Files on Jack the Ripper.

[Trevor Marriott]

Had enough of this one sided debate

Several weeks ago I made a decision not to post further on here or JTR Forums. However having sat and read what had been said on the matter of the seaside home and Kosminski I feel that there are issues that need addressing with regards to both.

As far as the seaside home is concerned I am in total agreement with Stewart Evans in that it never happened. To be able to carry out such an exercise the police would need a substantial amount of manpower, in addition staff at the seaside home would also become involved and adding more to the number of persons who would have had some knowledge of what was going on.

That knowledge being a very important part of the most famous criminal cases the UK had known up until that time. Can you imagine the talk there would have been amongst all of those people involved, the fact that JTR had been finally identified. And as Stewart suggests something would have been put into writing somewhere.

And then the suggestion that he was then taken back to his brothers house and left to his own devices with police outside watching beggars belief. Even if this person went voluntarily with them as soon as the ID had been made he would have been formally arrested, or taken into custody and certified if they felt that was more appropriate.

Over the years do you not think that someone would have talked about this ID parade? So please don’t keep bringing up the old chestnut "depleted files, stolen files, that nothing more than a cop out to keep suggesting that all the important documentation was lost or stolen. It a convenient explanation to cover up the cracks. It is also significant that in later years many officers who held different ranks when interviewed make no mention of the seaside home, any identification parade ever having taken place, or the fact that the identity of JTR was ever known to the police, and nothing appears in any police files.

Now let’s look at Aaron Kosminski who I agree with Phil Carter that he should be removed totally from the list of suspects along with Kaminski, Cohen, Levy.
One has to look back at where all of this started that was The MM and as is known this was the first mention of the name Kosminski. Then we have to look at the Aberconway Version in which MM writes that Kosminski can be exonerated.
Now that should have been the end of anything further to do with anyone named Kosminski.

But no the feeding frenzy started when the Marginalia came to light with everyone trying to identify who Kosminski actually was. This is where everyone starts to try to put square pegs in round holes. Following the publication of the marginalia which I will comment on in due course. The search was on to find a polish Jew who was mad, lived in Whitechapel, and was at some time incarcerated in an asylum.

Enter Cohen, Kaminski, Levy, now if you go back to The Aberconway version MM exonerates Kosminski who ever Kosminski was so I have to ask why so many people have continued to investigate these persons as ripper suspects. Setting aside the MM what would there be to suggest any of them were worthy of being classed as a suspect and what would set them apart from the thousands of other males who lived in Whitechapel at the time of the murders, many of those would also have fitted the same criteria.

Now the highly controversial marginalia which has become the holy grail to the Kosminski followers. I do not intend to go into the circumstances of how it was found etc but I will comment on the suggestion being made that it is totally authentic because it is not. The reason it is not is that it was examined by two experts some years ago and despite what has been said by the Kosminski`ites it has never been conclusively proved that Swanson wrote those annotations.
When I spoke to Nevill Swanson he stated that the experts had suggest that there was an 80% chance that Swanson had written the annotations, and in fact Jeff Leahy the other day posted something suggesting that in all probability Swanson had written the annotations.

The experts concluded that due to the passage of time Swanson handwriting had changed. I stand to be corrected here but I believe that sample of Swanson’s handwriting in 1888 was used as control samples.

Now I like Stewart Evans never take things on face value and rightly so I had reason to doubt the authenticity. These doubts were exasperated by the fact that both Nevill Swanson and some of the Kosminki`ites had copies of the handwriting experts report and declined to make it public. The Curator of The Met Police Crime museum also had a copy and when contacted he stated his had mysteriously disappeared, he stated he had no intention of obtaining a copy.
Having regard for the fact that there were other forensic tests which could have been carried out on the marginalia and were not I asked Nevill Swanson if he were prepared to have it re examined and he declined.

I then commissioned my own handwriting examination of the marginalia by an expert, only this time I used samples of Swanson’s handwriting dated 1894. My expert concluded that the same person did not write the annotations.
I again contacted Nevill Swanson with these new revelations and again asked him if he would allow my expert to examine the original to be able to make a formal statement about the comparisons and to allow the marginalia to be subjected to further forensic tests both of which would put the matter beyond a doubt.

Needless to say my request was again rejected. The reason given by Nevill Swanson was he didn’t want the book handling further as it was in a very delicate state. It wasn’t so delicate when he lent it to others to be used in a TV programme.

In any event whether it is authentic or not in essence it only goes to confirm what MM wrote in MM where he names Kosminski by surname only and of course he soon retracted his suspicions.

I have to ask why are the Kosminksi`ites hell bent on trying to destroy the views of others who don’t agree with them. Well clearly in my opinion and it would appear to be the opinion of others as well that it is because they have all gone out on a limb with regards to Kosmiski having written books and made and featured in television programmes about Kosminski being the prime suspect, and now in the light on new developments find themselves up the Swanson river without a paddle.

Come on guy’s time to get out the boat and succumb gracefully.

I am withdrawing again see you all in York

[Trevor Marriott]

But people have been saying this for years. Now that the Kominskites, and other Polish Jew primacy advocates have their backs against the wall, they want to claim credit for that too???

What a strange world Ripperology is...

Indeed, that is the issue, if Anderson and Swanson were right and authentic, as I also believe they were, the strongly defined "ascertained fact" and highly promoted best fits all Gordian knot of Martin Fido misdirects the research investigation of the true identity of Jack the Ripper. Or at least, what actually did take place.

The question has become based on the development and discovery of further official and primary source material; why would they do that?

Phil,

Surely you're not preparing the way for the research and documentary evidence of Trevor Marriott, that promises to blow Kosminski and all other suspects out of the water in his upcoming book on the Secret Police Files on Jack the Ripper.

Hi
Thats not going to take a lot of dymamite to do that !

Martin Fido has backpedalled so many times Fords have presented him with a new car its got one forward gear and 10 reverse.

[auspirograph]

As far as the seaside home is concerned I am in total agreement with Stewart Evans in that it never happened.

But Trevor,

I'm sure Stewart can speak for himself but as far as I'm aware and as most informed people would agree, that has never been his position here or in any of his published works.

Comments like this have done you or your professed integrity in the handling and assessment of source material on Jack the Ripper any favours.

[Phil Carter]

Phil,
Surely you're not preparing the way for the research and documentary evidence of Trevor Marriott, that promises to blow Kosminski and all other suspects out of the water in his upcoming book on the Secret Police Files on Jack the Ripper.

Hello Spiro,

No, not at all. I have been writing here quite independantly of Trevor, and my work with Trevor regarding the Special Branch files was research based for the tribunal case.

The question to Paul was out of my own interest. Without agenda or pre-concieved ideas or conclusions. I am not writing a book either, by the way. (on JTR)

kind regards

Phil

[Monty]

Are you comparing yourself to Stewart Trevor?

Lil dillusional don't you think? Seeing as Stewart has the basics whereas you, juding on feedback given of your tour, have yet to grasp that.

The silence from yourself and your clique has been deafening since Ripperologist published the Aberconway version.

You huff n puff yet when you boil it to the bones, the soup is just water.

You have graced us with your presence, you have our attention, the excitement is palpable....when are you going to deliver your promises?

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Are you comparing yourself to Stewart Trevor?

Lil dillusional don't you think? Seeing as Stewart has the basics whereas you, juding on feedback given of your tour, have yet to grasp that.

The silence from yourself and your clique has been deafening since Ripperologist published the Aberconway version.

You huff n puff yet when you boil it to the bones, the soup is just water.

You have graced us with your presence, you have our attention, the excitement is palpable....when are you going to deliver your promises?

Monty

Quite the contary The AV was of great help to me I will say all that I have to say now when the time is right and boy have i got a lot to say.

I wouldnt call my lengthy post huffing and puffing obvioulsy you havent been reading it but then again you wouldnt be able to with you head stuck up your as*.

I see you are still berating every one on here yet again you bring nothing to the table. If your best shot is ridicule and scorn you are a sad and lonely man

[jason_c]

But people have been saying this for years. Now that the Kominskites, and other Polish Jew primacy advocates have their backs against the wall, they want to claim credit for that too???

What a strange world Ripperology is...

Indeed, that is the issue, if Anderson and Swanson were right and authentic, as I also believe they were, the strongly defined "ascertained fact" and highly promoted best fits all Gordian knot of Martin Fido misdirects the research investigation of the true identity of Jack the Ripper. Or at least, what actually did take place.

The question has become based on the development and discovery of further official and primary source material; why would they do that?

Phil,

Surely you're not preparing the way for the research and documentary evidence of Trevor Marriott, that promises to blow Kosminski and all other suspects out of the water in his upcoming book on the Secret Police Files on Jack the Ripper.

Actually, numerous people havent been saying this for years. Many people have claimed no ID took place at all. This is very different from claiming an unsatisfactory identification occurred.

Relatively few Kosminski-ites claim the evidence against him is cast iron, or the ID is proof of guilt. Most say he is the best of a bad bunch of suspects rather than he is guilty, and the problematic evidence against him is still more substantial than the evidence against anyone else.

Kosminski advocates on these boards(I include myself) have wrestled over the problem of his identification for years. Its disingenuous to claim otherwise.