The Aberconway Version

[Stephen Thomas]

A very clever and well worded post, Ally.

Yes indeedee, what on earth could the problem be?

People want to see this and it seems to be on offer so why not post it?

[Ally]

I think you need to read the other messages following the one you quoted, because the situation has changed since then.

I have indeed read the messages and I don't understand what has changed. Mr. McClaren has asked that the document be published on the internet, Keith has decided not to do it now.

I do not understand the reasoning behind his refusal of Mr. McClaren's request.

If it is pure pique at the fact that Marriott is a total pill, that is not necessarily reason to deny Mr. McClaren his request if it is being held purely to spite Trevor. While I totally and completely get that Trevor has behaved in a manner that is IMO completely reprehensible to any person who values basic decency and fair play, spiting him is not necessarily sufficient cause to deny Mr. McClaren, the person who owns the document and without whose generosity no one would have access to, his request.

Of course, I could be completely misreading what is going on, I fully admit I don't operate with all lights running these days, but I am genuinely confused as to the denial.

That being said, if Trevor has Mr. McClarens contact info, he can request that Mr. McClaren send a copy of the document to one of the webmasters (I understand if Trevor doesn't want it going to Casebook) but he can give Mr. McClaren direct contact to any website that would be willing to publish it.

Again, I am not trying to stir, genuinely AM NOT. I just don't think everyone else with a genuine interest should suffer because Marriott has IMO approached this with all the tact and grace of a lumbering baboon.

[Chris]

I have indeed read the messages and I don't understand what has changed. Mr. McClaren has asked that the document be published on the internet, Keith has decided not to do it now.

I think you have indeed misunderstood. If you go back and look again at the messages, you'll see that no one has said that.

[Ally]

You are probably right and I have misunderstood which is why I was asking Stewart for clarification. As I said, I take full responsibility for the fact that I am not operating with a complete deck currently and I want to repeat, I AM NOT trying to stir, simply to comprehend.

This was the part that confused me:

You are totally wrong to say that it is my 'decision to not publish the letter'. That decision is Keith's, with Mr Mclaren's permission. I am sure that Keith will have the document published when he sees fit to do so.

and this:

There is nothing to hide in all this and I am sure that the document will be published at the right time. But it is true to state that no one is going to be coerced in to producing it, especially when they had not even been approached with a view to publishing it in the first place.

This is the part mostly that has confused me. Mr. McClaren has asked that it be published on the internet, so what is the "right time" being waited for? Where is the coercision now? Mr. MClaren has asked it be published, surely he is not coercive?

This is the part I am wondering what I have missed.

If it is simply that Keith is currently too busy, which is understandable, then there are others like Stewart who have access to the document who have said they are willing or as I have suggested someone could suggest that Mr. McClaren send it to one of the websites if Keith is currently too busy to do so.

[Chris]

Ally

As Stewart has said, Keith Skinner approached Christopher McLaren to ask for permission to make the document publicly available. As I understand it, that was nearly a month ago, after it became apparent that Trevor Marriott had contacted someone from a different branch of the family who knew nothing about the document. It is as a result of Keith Skinner's request that Mr McLaren has now asked him to make it available on the Internet. So I think that explains why the decision rests with Keith and Mr McLaren, not anyone else.

We all know what has made the situation so awkward in the interim - the public criticism and slurs directed at the authors of the "A to Z" and now at Stewart. Of course you can say that logically that should all be ignored and the document should be made instantly available for the benefit of everyone else. On the other hand, I think if I were put in that position I should feel very much like telling Trevor Marriott exactly what he could do with his demands for "transparency."

On the whole, I think the best thing would be for people to let the discussion drop for a bit so that the ill-feeling that's been caused can subside. But what do I know?

[Ally]

I completely agree that Marriott has done enormous harm to the cause of bringing this document to the public view. That people are actually giving him credit for its possibly being published is both ignorant and ludicrous.

But again, if he and the ill will he has caused and the implied slurs to Keith, Paul and Martin is the sole reason that it is not now being brought forth, then it is a case of everyone else being punished because of the actions of one man's graceless jackassery (well maybe two men's).

If that is the reason, and I do not know if it is, then I would implore Keith to not allow his rightfully felt disgust for Trevor to impede everyone elses thirst for knowledge. You say the matter should be laid to rest to allow ill feelings to subside. For how long precisely? Trevor will be back in a few weeks and then the subject and the ill feelings will simply rise again.

Right now, the vast majority of people wanting to see the documents are NOT the one who has wronged or slurred Keith and Co.

But again, this is based on speculation that Keith's reasons involve Trevor, and attributing a retribution to his actions that may not actually be there. In any case, I would think that Keith is more a gentleman than those who have wronged him and he can be trusted to act accordingly since he cannot punish the one without spiting many.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Ally,

It could be construed from your last post that I have slurred Keith, Paul and Martin. This is not the case. You have come late to this particular party, so I perfectly understand any confusion on your part and am grateful you took care to qualify your point with a "maybe".

Just for the record, I have not posted any "unjustified antagonistic statements" [SPE, Post #35] so there is nothing for which I have to apologise or prove. Whilst I did note how Stewart Evans neatly spun the discussion around to the matter of my posting of Trevor's correspondence with Mr McLaren, any perceived slights by me to anyone's reputation or integrity are purely the product of his own imaginings.

Regards,

Simon

[Stewart P Evans]

'Neatly Spun'

...
Just for the record, I have not posted any "unjustified antagonistic statements" [SPE, Post #35] so there is nothing for which I have to apologise or prove. Whilst I did note how Stewart Evans neatly spun the discussion around to the matter of my posting of Trevor's correspondence with Mr McLaren, any perceived slights by me to anyone's reputation or integrity are purely the product of his own imaginings.
...Simon

The terse post to me stating, 'Neatly spun' implies twisting and misrepresentation on my part when, in fact, I was stating facts. In case Mr Wood hadn't realised it the word 'spin' in this context is used in a derogatory sense.

[Stewart P Evans]

Interest

Hi Stewart,
I am confused. If the person whose permission is needed is Mr. McClaren's and he appears to have given it, indeed, asked that it now be published on the internet, then what precisely is the current delay?
Not attempting to stir or be rude to anyone, my question is genuinely asked, but it appears that the permission has been given by the person who actually owns the document and he has requested it be published, so why are his wishes not currently being followed?
Once again, I want to stress, I am NOT attempting to accuse anyone of anything, I am genuinely confused about this.

Ally, it's quite simple really.

Keith is in possession of a copy of the 'Aberconway version' that he was given by the Mclaren family twenty four years ago with permission to use it for his book. Keith used it in his 1987 book, explaining the provenance, and it was subsequently used in 1991 in the A To Z of which Keith was a co-author. It is a lengthy document so not all of it was published, merely the parts that were felt to be relevant, about the suspects. Since then until now Keith has never been asked to provide a full copy of the document.

Seeing the interest generated on these boards Keith decided that it would be nice to publish it on these boards for all to see. He had already provided me with a copy and asked if I would post it for him when he had made contact with Mr Christopher Mclaren to get his nod of approval. This he did. However, because of the adverse effect of posts on these boards Keith withheld the go ahead. For my part I cannot post it without Keith's permission and I do not have that permission.

Mr Mclaren is aware that suggestions had been made on these boards that the original document had been stolen, which he obviously realised was a nonsense as he still owns it. It is, actually, a privately owned document and no one has the 'right' to see it without necessary approval. As I am heartily sick of all this nonsense I merely stated that I shall not be posting it - even if Keith gave permission - which he hasn't. I hope that helps.

[Dr. John Watson]

I completely agree that Marriott has done enormous harm to the cause of bringing this document to the public view. That people are actually giving him credit for its possibly being published is both ignorant and ludicrous.

In post no. 4, I thanked Mr. Marriott for his efforts in tracking down the current whereabouts of the Aberconway document. This was in response to post no. 1 which quoted a letter from the current owner of the Aberconway document to Trevor Marriott which reads in part: "Dear Mr Marriott: Thank you for your letter of October 14th . . . my mother's copy of my grandfathers notes is in my possession. I have heard that there have been rumours that it had been stolen from my family. This is untrue . . . In view of the recent rumours I have asked Mr Skinner to publish it on the internet, where it would be available to all. Yours sincerely, Christopher McLaren."

Thus, due directly to Marriott's efforts, the location of the original document was firmly established for all to see - and its owner prompted to request its publication on the internet (which request has yet to be complied with). It was for that reason I thanked him. Nothing ignorant or ludicrous about it, and anyone who suggests that is simply full of beans.

Ally, we seem to agree that publication of the document should not be withheld from all simply to punish Marriott, and if that is your position, I support it fully. Hopefully, with your efforts, we shall yet be able to view it in its entirety - on these boards.

John the Hopeful

[Ally]

DJW,

Ah but even from what Trevor's posted, the owner of the document had already been made aware that there was an issue, had been asked for his permission to post it, and had granted it. If Trevor hadn't been such a total wank in his accusations against the people who had it, we might already have seen it. So what precisely is there to "thank him for". The necessary permissions have already been granted, and now, because he behaved like such a tool, the people who possess it are withholding it from everyone.

Do I think that is the "right" thing to do? No. Is that technically their "right" to do so? Yes I suppose. Except that Mr. McLaren (apologies for having gotten his name wrong all along) has asked that it be posted to still rumors and it is apparently not being done.

He can of course send a copy of the document directly to the website, which of course, I hope he does in fact do and then it will be published without the ill grace and bumbling of Trevor impeding its publication.

However one thing is still completely clear. Trevor implied that the authors of the A-Z had illicitly obtained the document which has been proven false, and he does in fact owe them a sincere and public apology. In addition to us hoping that Keith not allow spite to prevent him from doing the right thing, we all ought to be chastising Trevor for doing the WRONG thing and so far, failing to man up, admit his mistake and apologize for it.

[Chris]

Thus, due directly to Marriott's efforts, the location of the original document was firmly established for all to see - and its owner prompted to request its publication on the internet (which request has yet to be complied with).

Part of the problem is that, because of the way Christopher McLaren's letter was phrased, it wasn't evident that his request came as a result of an approach to him by Keith Skinner, who had contacted him after it became apparent that Trevor Marriott had written to someone from a different branch of the family who didn't know anything about the document.

That was unfortunate, given the fact that - as well as the more serious innuendo about stolen documents - there were also a lot of silly accusations about "squirreling things away," a lack of "transparency" and so on. In fact while these accusations were being made Keith was in the process of getting permission to publish the document. If only Trevor Marriott had done what several people here were urging him to do, and contacted Keith Skinner directly, all this misunderstanding and ill-feeling could have been avoided.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stewart,

There you go again, this time ignoring your unfounded accusations against me whilst in the same breath turning my words into an imagined personal insult.

Neatly spun.

Regards,

Simon

[Ally]

Excuse me Simon but how in the world else is what you said supposed to be taken as anything other than a personal insult? When you tell someone that their words are "neatly spun" you are accusing them of twisting, distorting or manipulating the truth. That is absolutely an insult and your attempt to play coy and innocent is pathetic.

You absolutely have insulted Stewart, your defense and volunteering to be Trevor's mouthpiece is an insult to the people who he has by insinuation implicated in duplicity and theft, especially since there is no apology coming from him or his spokesperson.

Trevor is one hundred percent responsible for this mess. All he had to do was ASK Keith to post the document and it would have been done. Keith was in the process of getting permission once the question was raised and in the meantime, Trevor shot off his mouth and implied that the authors of the A-Z were somehow complicit in nefarious deeds.

This entire mess can be laid 100 percent at Trevor's doorstep and there is absolutely no spin needed. He blundered in shooting off his mouth and everyone is poorer for it.

He needs to man up and apologize though I doubt he has the sack for it.

[The Good Michael]

There you go again, this time ignoring your unfounded accusations against me whilst in the same breath turning my words into an imagined personal insult.

Simon,

You just gotta have a $hit-eating grin on your face as you type this. We must all be stupid while you are so clever. You and Marriott must be having one heck of a love fest.

Mike