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Did Littlechild consider Dr. T a suspect for being a woman hater or for being gay?

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  • Did Littlechild consider Dr. T a suspect for being a woman hater or for being gay?

    Greetings all,

    So, why did Chief Inspector Littlechild consider Francis Tumblety a Ripper suspect? Was it because, as he stated, “[Tumbety’s] feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record”, i.e., a woman hater, or was it because Tumblety was a “Sycopathia Sexualis” with “contrary sexual instincts”, i.e., he was gay?


    The answer is neither.

    Chief Inspector Littlechild considered Francis Tumblety “amongst the suspects”, because his boss, Assistant Commissioner Anderson, and the results of the ongoing investigation identified him as a suspect,

    Brooklyn Citizen, November 23, 1888, “Is He The Ripper?”
    A Brooklynite Charged With the Whitechapel Murders Superintendent Campbell Asked by the London Police to Hunt Up the Record of Francis Tumblety
    Police Superintendent Campbell received a cable dispatch yesterday from Mr. Anderson, the deputy chief of the London Police, asking him to make some inquiries about Francis Tumblety, who is under arrest in England on the charge of indecent assault. Tumblety is referred to in the dispatch in the following manner: “He says he is known to you, Chief, as Brooklyn’s Beauty.”

    Brooklyn Standard-Union, November 23, 1888 …the London Police are evidently doing their level best to fasten the Whitechapel murders upon Dr. F. T. Tumblety.
    Today Police Superintendent Campbell received a telegram from Assistant Police Commissioner Anderson, acting Chief since the resignation of Police Commissioner Warren, in reference to Tumblety. Mr. Anderson wants some information as to his life in Brooklyn, and says he is accused of indecent assault in London, where some say he was known as “Brooklyn’s Beauty.”



    Littlechild was not in charge of the Ripper investigation; Anderson was. Littlechild –as the immediate subordinate of Anderson in charge of Special Branch- would only have been privy to Tumblety’s suspect status AFTER he was suspected. It is quite understandable why Littlechild would have known about Tumblety (especially his large dossier), because of Tumblety’s apparent connections with the Irish Nationalists. Primary sources are clear; they were looking for anything on him in order to incarcerate him, and Littlechild’s office would have been a great place to find something.

    The problem is, for too long people believed that when Littlechild stated, “amongst the suspects”, he only meant a minor suspect who was merely pulled into the station on suspicion like hundreds of others. This conclusion ignores the reality that Anderson got personally involved with the Tumblety case in November 1888 (how many minor suspects did he personally name during the peak of the murders?).

    Also, to say that Littlechild’s comments are untrustworthy because he believed Tumblety committed suicide shortly after ignores the fact that he was correct about Tumblety being a suspect and about everything that happened in the Tumblety investigation in November 1888. Actually, notice what littlechild really stated in the Simms letter, It was believed he committed suicide but certain it is that…” He never stated that Tumblety committed suicide. This conforms perfectly to a Special Branch Chief Inspector who was temporarily involved in the Tumblety case, because of Tumblety’s recorded connections in the Irish nationalist issue, but was then not involved in the process of incarcerating Tumblety. Why would he have been? His part was done.

    Since Littlechild’s “amongst the suspects” comment meant significant suspects, then we can see why his opinion that Tumblety was “a very likely suspect” is not really of critical importance. He was comparing Tumblety to a small list of suspects generated by Scotland Yard CID. In view of this, his opinion of those with “contrary sexual instincts” is irrelevant.

    Littlechild considered Tumblety a significant Ripper suspect because Anderson and company considered Tumblety a significant suspect just after the Kelly murder. This why the Littlechild letter is so important.

    Sincerely,
    Mike
    Last edited by mklhawley; 05-17-2013, 03:31 PM.
    The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
    http://www.michaelLhawley.com

  • #2
    Hi Mike,

    Littlechild did not write that "Tumblety was a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' with 'contrary sexual instincts'."

    He wrote—

    "Although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was) but his feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record . . ."

    Littlechild only mentioned "contrary sexual instinct" with regard to Oscar Wilde who "used to like to be punched about" and the Harry Thaw incident at the Carlton Hotel, London.

    Regards,

    Simon
    Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

    Comment


    • #3
      Was thinking of the term "aggravated murder" which can mean basically murder committed to cover up another crime or silence potential witnesses.. How do we know these murders werent precisely that? If so the terms "sycopathia sexualis","woman hater" "sadist" etc would have no meaning whether applied to Tumblety or anybody else.
      By the way Ive never heard Tumblety referred to as "brooklyns beauty" before.Rather quaintI must say.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
        Hi Mike,

        Littlechild did not write that "Tumblety was a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' with 'contrary sexual instincts'."

        He wrote—

        "Although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was) but his feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record . . ."

        Littlechild only mentioned "contrary sexual instinct" with regard to Oscar Wilde who "used to like to be punched about" and the Harry Thaw incident at the Carlton Hotel, London.

        Regards,

        Simon
        Hi Simon,

        You misread, but that's ok. Are you trying to say that Littlechild didn't bring up "contrary sexual instincts" with regards to Wilde because of Tumblety? Littlechild certainly did consider Tumblety having "contrary sexual instincts." Regardless, Littlechild considering Tumblety a suspect had nothing to do with it.


        Hi Smoking Joe,

        Brooklyn's Beauty was certainly known by Scotland Yard.

        Sincerely,
        Mike
        The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
        http://www.michaelLhawley.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Mike,

          What on earth are you blathering about? I didn't misread anything.

          I suggest you pull your ripcord before it's too late.

          Regards,

          Simon
          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Simon,

            The ripcord comment is quite ingenious!

            "It is very strange how those given to 'Contrary sexual instinct' and 'degenerates' are given to cruelty, even Wilde used to like to be punched about." (Littlechild)

            "Contrary sexual instinct" was not referring to Wilde, since he stated "even Wilde". Contrary sexual instinct referred to the subject in the first paragraph, Tumblety. You claiming that "contrary sexual instinct" referred only to Wilde is wrong.

            You said, "Littlechild did not write that "Tumblety was a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' with 'contrary sexual instincts' ", and I never said that. I said, "or was it because Tumblety was a “Sycopathia Sexualis” with “contrary sexual instincts”, i.e., he was gay?" I am merely making the point that Littlechild meant "contrary sexual instincts" for Tumblety.

            But that's not the issue. The issue is Littlechild considered Tumblety a suspect because Scotland Yard CID, headed by Anderson, did.

            Sincerely,
            Mike




            I know full well that
            The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
            http://www.michaelLhawley.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Mike,

              Thank you. Ingenious is one of my middle names.

              "Although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he [Tumblety] was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was) . . ." I quote Littlechild verbatim.

              Tumblety was not a known sadist, but Jack the Ripper was.

              Discuss.

              Regards,

              Simon
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Mike,

                Yes, we know all that about Littlechild considering Tumblety a ripper suspect because he was 'among' the suspects back in the days before Anderson and co decided it was somebody else. I have no particular problem either with your claim that he was once considered to be a 'significant' suspect.

                But what we don't know is precisely why Littlechild - uniquely it seems - was describing him as a 'very likely' suspect in 1913.

                We can only go by his personal observations about the man in the same letter, so you can hardly claim that his comments about homosexuals and sadomasochism; Tumblety's extremely bitter feelings towards women; and Littlechild's (erroneous) statement of fact that this suspect was never seen again after leaving France, and was believed to have topped himself in the wake of Miller's Court (clearly Littlechild didn't know otherwise), had no bearing on why he believed as late as 1913 that this man was 'very likely' to have been the murderer. That just doesn't make any sense. Words mean something, so what was he going on about, if not backing up his 'very likely' opinion as best he could with whatever he knew, or believed, about the man, his sexual inclinations and what became of him?

                Tumblety was among the suspects - tick.

                He hated women - tick.

                He disappeared after MJK's murder - tick.

                He was gay, and gays tend to be cruel - tick.

                But we know better, don't we? The man was among the suspects - okay, a significant suspect for a while - and actively gay. That's about it really.

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                Last edited by caz; 05-31-2013, 02:46 PM.
                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                Comment


                • #9
                  No Marquis de Sade...

                  Tumblety was not a known sadist, but Jack the Ripper was.
                  The ripper didn't appear to be a sadist as the victims were dispatched quickly and effectively. It seems mutilation was the motivation..

                  Most of the damage was done post-mortem...

                  Littlechild may have conflated extreme violence with sadism......



                  Greg

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by caz View Post
                    That's about it really.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    Hi Caz,

                    We are actually in close agreement, but that would not have happened just a few years ago. My issue is what your last statement has summed up; a minimalization of Tumblety. In my opinion this is a vestige from the days when most were convinced that he was at best an insignificant suspect. The reality of it is, he was a significant suspect, as evidenced by busy Anderson getting personally involved in the Tumblety case immediately after the Kelly murder. Anderson would have focused upon the most promising leads, and that's what he did. Littlechild was privy to these discussions and saw how Tumblety was important to Anderson and company. ...and then to find out Anderson no longer considered him a suspect by 1913? That's what I see in the Littlechild letter. So what if he didn't know what happened to Tumblety post-November 1888. Littlechild was no longer involved in the Tumblety case.

                    Interesting thoughts Greg.

                    Sincerely,

                    Mike
                    Last edited by mklhawley; 05-31-2013, 03:30 PM.
                    The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                    http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Actually we do know why Littlechild considered Tumblety still a major suspect, if not the suspect of 1888.

                      We know this because of whom he wrote to, George Sims, and what about: the doctor suspect who took his own life.

                      Sims had written for years about a major suspect -- he just calls him the Jack the Ripper -- and that he was an affluent, middle-aged medical man with no patients and who was something of a recluse. He was about to be arrested when he drowned himself in the Thames.

                      This suspect was also English and had been sectioned twice because he desired to savage harlots.

                      Finally, in 1913, Littlechild corrects Sims, assuming that his 'Dr D' (who?) is the same suspect?

                      It was 'Dr. T' and he was a Yank and he had been arrested but fled. Somebody has told Jack Littlechild that Tumblety may have killed himself in France (did he drown himself there?) though the ex-police chief remains cautious.

                      Hey, I wonder who told him that?

                      Littlelchild seems to have forgotten two things.

                      That Inspector Andrews was sent to Canada to do a background check on Tumblety and thus he was still alive in NYC, or he does not want to mention it.

                      Secondly, and more significantly, he has forgotten that Tumblety was exonerated by subsequent Jack murders.

                      This is because Kelly has, retrospectively, become the final victim, which put Tumblety -- whether by accident or by design -- back in the frame.

                      Sims had also written in 1907 that the alternate major theory at the Yard was about an American medical man -- though young -- who had lived long after the murders.

                      Littlechild mentions Wilde, not as a murderer but rather as having a secret life which was 'deviant' and criminal (and which Littlechild helped expose as a gumshoe) and also the bizarre and despicable Harry K Thaw who was a murderer.

                      Thaw had shot his wife's lover, the architect Stanford White, in Madison Square Garden -- which White had designed -- in plain view and later got off scott free, because his fortune paid for an insanity defense.

                      eg. Another rich, American, deviant who had gotten away with murder?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Jonathan,

                        Your point about Littlechild's comments directed towards Simms cannot be overstated and the fact that he's correcting him. Why would Littlechild attempt to correct Simms if he was not privy to inside November 1888 information?

                        Sincerely,

                        Mike
                        The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                        http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
                          Hi Caz,

                          We are actually in close agreement, but that would not have happened just a few years ago. My issue is what your last statement has summed up; a minimalization of Tumblety. In my opinion this is a vestige from the days when most were convinced that he was at best an insignificant suspect. The reality of it is, he was a significant suspect, as evidenced by busy Anderson getting personally involved in the Tumblety case immediately after the Kelly murder. Anderson would have focused upon the most promising leads, and that's what he did. Littlechild was privy to these discussions and saw how Tumblety was important to Anderson and company. ...and then to find out Anderson no longer considered him a suspect by 1913? That's what I see in the Littlechild letter. So what if he didn't know what happened to Tumblety post-November 1888. Littlechild was no longer involved in the Tumblety case.
                          So what, Mike? That has been my whole point all along. In 1913 Littlechild still thought Tumblety was 'very likely' to have been the ripper. But if this was even partly because he believed he had disappeared after Kelly's murder, never to be seen again because he took his own life, it could make all the difference in the world. If you could go back and inform Littlechild that Tumblety had gone on to live a long, non-murderous, non-suicidal life across the pond until his death in 1903, how do you know he wouldn't say "Well in that case I now consider him to be a completely shite suspect! The real murderer's brain would have given way after the horror of Miller's Court!"

                          Love,

                          Caz
                          X
                          "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Caz,

                            Our discussion has nothing to do with this thread, although, I like the fact that you agree Scotland Yard most likely considered Tumblety a significant suspect, and Littlechild was privy to this in November 1888.

                            To your point…

                            It seems presumptuous of you to claim that Littlchild would reject Tumblety as a likely suspect if he knew Tumblety actually lived for another 15 years without murdering anyone or committing suicide. Keep in mind, Littlechild had Tumblety’s record and knew Tumblety didn’t kill anyone for fifty-plus years before 1888, yet he considered him a very likely suspect. Why? Littlechild knew that Tumblety’s issue was a bizarre hatred of women, especially prostitutes, and not some burning unsatisfying impulse to mutilate women. This made such an impact on Littlechild that he still believed Tumblety was a significant suspect a quarter of a century later. The suicide addition is a nonstarter. The only reason why he mentioned suicide was because someone else proposed it, and he didn’t really put too much stake into this, anyway. Littlechild stated, It was believed he committed suicide but certain it is that from this time the 'Ripper' murders came to an end”. Besides, Littlechild did think Tumblety committed suicide at the time of his bail-jumping in November 1888. No one in Scotland Yard heard of any Ripper suspects drowning in the Thames in late November or early December.

                            You should have continued with post-1888 Tumblety in your hypothetical scenario. Littlechild would have realized that if Tumblety was completely innocent, he would have continued his life just the way he had always done, constantly travelling with young travel mates in semi-retirement, still dabbling in herb doctoring. He then would have realized that this did not happen. This man with lots of money rarely spent it and opted for a life in the shadows of society, only to end up dying with an unusual set of cheap brass rings (very similar to Chapman’s rings) in the same pocket as his usual diamond rings and gold chain.

                            Sincerely,

                            Mike
                            The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                            http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mike

                              Our discussion has nothing to do with this thread, although, I like the fact that you agree Scotland Yard most likely considered Tumblety a significant suspect, and Littlechild was privy to this in November 1888.

                              Where does it say anywhere in any document, that anyone other than Littlechild from Scotland Yard considered Tumblety as a significant suspect or any catergory of a suspect for that matter.

                              May I point out to you that un corrobrated opinions given by ageing police officers in later years on who they thought the killer might have been do not equate to prime suspect status for the person they are giving an opinion about
                              Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 06-10-2013, 10:25 PM.

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