Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Littlechild - Whitechapel Murders Find

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by seanr View Post
    In truth, I personally cannot recommend Felicity Lowde's blog. Her posts are very long and confusing, and in my opinion loaded with conspiracy theories. I do wonder how she came to be the only researcher who was given access to the Special Branch ledgers. But it does include some photos of the ledgers she took, which given the original documents have been destroyed may be the only records in existence.

    I'm pretty sure it says 'Cumming Street 30', rather than 'Cumming Sheet 30'. Although the suspect here relates to CID file 54367 (I think), which I don't know what case that file referred to, but CID 52983 looks like it was a Whitechapel Murders file.
    I don't know of what crime the suspected American, was suspected of.
    Theres one perticular thing about one of the JtR victims in that blog i find very interesting.
    'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by seanr View Post
      I'm pretty sure it says 'Cumming Street 30', rather than 'Cumming Sheet 30'. Although the suspect here relates to CID file 54367 (I think), which I don't know what case that file referred to, but CID 52983 looks like it was a Whitechapel Murders file.
      I don't know of what crime the suspected American, was suspected of.
      I think you are correct.
      The reference seems to be to a suspicious American at 30 Cumming Street and the reference number relates to a CID Registry file with a similar number to those concerned in the Whitechapel murders. Are numbers starting with 5 concerned with specific CID investigations perhaps? Rather than being concerned with intelligence concerning political groups, secret societies etc. as a lot of the Register entries are apparently concerned with?
      There are a couple of other similar references I have noted (they are on the same page as a note about Morris Mendlestein being a member of the Berner Street club, spouse of Eva Hartstein of grapestalk fame, that I mentioned previously on another thread)

      Medbey R alleged suspicious person at Tilbury 52983/1522 CID Registry
      Melville Inspector proceeding to Middlesboro re visit of P. of Wales 54992/1 CID Registry




      Comment


      • #48
        It would have been useful for comparison to have the file reference and folio numbers of the infamous:

        "McGrath, William – suspicious Irishman at 57 Bedford Gardens" followed by
        "McGrath, William - said to be connected to Whitechapel murders".

        Does anyone have them by any chance?

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Debra A View Post
          It would have been useful for comparison to have the file reference and folio numbers of the infamous:

          "McGrath, William – suspicious Irishman at 57 Bedford Gardens" followed by
          "McGrath, William - said to be connected to Whitechapel murders".

          Does anyone have them by any chance?
          These entries appear in the Special Branch Ledgers and the files were destroyed long ago it seem

          I believe this is the Bedford Gardens, which was in Kensington, West London. Census records for this address show that this address in 1888 was occupied by several painters and sculptors who had their studios there. One of these was William Magrath who was a painter. The only difference is the spelling of the surname in the census record. However, I would suggest that it is most probably the same person referred to in the register. So what is known about William Magrath and what was there about him, which brought him to the notice of Special Branch officers and the suspicion he was connected to the Whitechapel murders?

          Magrath was born on the 20th of March 1838 at Cork, Ireland. He attended the Cork School of Art and immigrated to the United States in 1855. He took up residence in Albany, New York state, and later had a studio in New York City from 1868. He became a member of the American Society of painters in watercolours from 1868 and was elected an associate member of the National Academy in 1873 and an academician in 1876. He was famous for painting Irish landscapes.

          In 1879 he moved to England. At the time of the 1881 census, he was living in the household of Georgina West at 135, Gower Street. In 1883 his address was given as care of Charles Booth, 98, Gower Street. He exhibited three works at the Cork Industrial and Fine Art exhibition of 1883. In the same year, he returned to the USA and established a studio in Washington, DC. He was naturalized as a citizen of the USA on the 3rd of June 1886.

          It is known he visited England and Ireland for six months in the summer of 1888. His exact whereabouts at the time of the murders are not known. What is known is that he left England on the 22nd of December 1888 for New York. In 1889 he moved from Washington back to New York City. In June 1890 he again left the USA travelling back to County Cork in Ireland. The following two years he spent travelling back and forth between England and Ireland. On the 26th of April 1892, he applied for a passport at the American Legation in London describing himself as temporarily resident at 115, Gower Street, London stating he intended to return to the USA within one year. It is believed he returned to the USA in November 1893.
          Between 1908 and 1910 he was living in New York City. Sometime thereafter he returned to the United Kingdom. Records show he was in the United Kingdom in 1915 and also in 1918. He died on the 13th of February 1918 at 19, Park Road, Harlesden, London.
          In 1892, his description was given as follows:
          Age: 54 years
          Stature: 5 feet, 8 inches Forehead: high
          Eyes: blue Nose: prominent
          Mouth: moustache Chin: bearded Hair: Brown Complexion: fair Face: oval
          It is not known how he looked in 1888. However, a self-portrait he painted in 1873 also shows him with a full beard and a moustache. So it is likely he retained his beard throughout most of his life. It should be noted that no one with a full beard was ever seen at any of the murder locations or in company with any of the victims before their deaths.
          At this time there is no evidence to show why he came under suspicion. Had I been able to examine the register and ledgers in more detail I might have been able to ascertain why he was named.



          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
          Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 04-23-2022, 12:42 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Thanks. I know all that, Trevor. I read the original research done by Chris Philips and was involved with some of it ON THIS THREAD (post #52 onwards)
            I mentioned the McGrath entry in the context of wanting to know what the file reference numbers for those were.
            I have since found out what they were.
            Last edited by Debra A; 04-23-2022, 02:04 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
              I haven't actually visited her site. I wonder if she has photographs of the entire page, along with the headings?
              Originally posted by Debra A View Post

              Aren't all the pages headed the same?

              Name [spanning two columns] /subject (briefly) / Reference to Correspondence/ Folio in correspondence register.
              As it happens there is a photo from the Special Branch ledgers on one of Felicity Lowde's many blogs which does show the headings and it aligns with Debs' description. The first two columns are grouped under the generic term 'Name'.

              http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2...saditobeat.jpg

              I remain more persuaded that some allegation of involvement in the Whitechapel Murders was made against a 'Mr Churchill'.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Debra A View Post

                I think you are correct.
                The reference seems to be to a suspicious American at 30 Cumming Street and the reference number relates to a CID Registry file with a similar number to those concerned in the Whitechapel murders. Are numbers starting with 5 concerned with specific CID investigations perhaps? Rather than being concerned with intelligence concerning political groups, secret societies etc. as a lot of the Register entries are apparently concerned with?
                There are a couple of other similar references I have noted (they are on the same page as a note about Morris Mendlestein being a member of the Berner Street club, spouse of Eva Hartstein of grapestalk fame, that I mentioned previously on another thread)

                Medbey R alleged suspicious person at Tilbury 52983/1522 CID Registry
                Melville Inspector proceeding to Middlesboro re visit of P. of Wales 54992/1 CID Registry
                I'm pretty sure 'Medbey R' the suspicious person at Tilbury is being connected with the Whitechapel Murders there, from the CID file number.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seanr View Post



                  As it happens there is a photo from the Special Branch ledgers on one of Felicity Lowde's many blogs which does show the headings and it aligns with Debs' description. The first two columns are grouped under the generic term 'Name'.

                  http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2...saditobeat.jpg

                  I remain more persuaded that some allegation of involvement in the Whitechapel Murders was made against a 'Mr Churchill'.
                  There is an entry in the SB Ledgers undre the name R Churchill which reads Perpetrator of The Whitechapel Murders”.

                  I have previoulsy explained that the SB Ledgers were an early form of collators system which means that any information gathered by officers or sent to the police anonymously was recorded, so researchers shouldnt get carried away with some of these entries as some may be of a malicious nature,or completely unfounded

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                    There is an entry in the SB Ledgers undre the name R Churchill which reads Perpetrator of The Whitechapel Murders”.

                    I have previoulsy explained that the SB Ledgers were an early form of collators system which means that any information gathered by officers or sent to the police anonymously was recorded, so researchers shouldnt get carried away with some of these entries as some may be of a malicious nature,or completely unfounded

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                    There's a link in the previous post to an entry photographed by Felicity Lowde with the wording:

                    'Churchill Mr - Alledged perpetrator of Whitechapel murders'

                    From the similarity to the wording of the described entry R Churchill “Perpetrator of The Whitechapel Murders”. Are these not the same entry?
                    Felicity Lowde refers to the pictured entry to suggest Lord Randolph Churchill's involvement in the murders, if she'd found a stronger worded entry to back up that claim, I assume she would have used that. Were there definitely two separate entries referring to a suspect named Churchill?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by seanr View Post

                      There's a link in the previous post to an entry photographed by Felicity Lowde with the wording:

                      'Churchill Mr - Alledged perpetrator of Whitechapel murders'

                      From the similarity to the wording of the described entry R Churchill “Perpetrator of The Whitechapel Murders”. Are these not the same entry?
                      Felicity Lowde refers to the pictured entry to suggest Lord Randolph Churchill's involvement in the murders, if she'd found a stronger worded entry to back up that claim, I assume she would have used that. Were there definitely two separate entries referring to a suspect named Churchill?
                      I only found the one I have quoted Felicity Lowdes work has to be treated with caution If she hadnt abused her position the ledgers might still be here today, now they have been destroyed or so we have been told.

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seanr View Post

                        There's a link in the previous post to an entry photographed by Felicity Lowde with the wording:

                        'Churchill Mr - Alledged perpetrator of Whitechapel murders'

                        From the similarity to the wording of the described entry R Churchill “Perpetrator of The Whitechapel Murders”. Are these not the same entry?
                        Felicity Lowde refers to the pictured entry to suggest Lord Randolph Churchill's involvement in the murders, if she'd found a stronger worded entry to back up that claim, I assume she would have used that. Were there definitely two separate entries referring to a suspect named Churchill?
                        I think it's safe to say there is only one entry for 'Churchill Mr- alleged perpetrator of Whitechapel murders 52983/1449 CID Registry'
                        see post #100 on this link:
                        LINK TO ANOTHER THREAD DISCUSSING THIS ENTRY

                        Last edited by Debra A; 04-26-2022, 03:56 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Click image for larger version

Name:	lord randolph churchill.jpg
Views:	205
Size:	36.7 KB
ID:	785166
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Click image for larger version  Name:	Churchill Brooke Street 1914.jpg Views:	0 Size:	192.9 KB ID:	785169 Lady Churchill in 1914.
                            Family residence next door to 74 Brook Street where Sir William Gull once resided.
                            Last edited by DJA; 04-29-2022, 08:50 AM.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X