Questioning PC Harveys testimony.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

It's interesting that amongst Collard's list of Eddowes' attire there's no mention of an apron (or part thereof).

Regards,

Simon

[Gideon Fell]

Hi All,

It's interesting that amongst Collard's list of Eddowes' attire there's no mention of an apron (or part thereof).

Regards,

Simon

What??? See below, last item.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Gideon,

What??? indeed.

Note that in describing her attire The Times, October 1st, reported that "a piece of old white coarse apron and a piece of riband were tied loosely around the neck."

There's your "1 piece of old white apron."

What happened to the apron Eddowes was supposedly wearing, the one from which "Jack" sliced off a section and dumped in Goulston Street?

Regards,

Simon

[Gideon Fell]

Hi Gideon,

What??? indeed.

Note that in describing her attire The Times, October 1st, reported that "a piece of old white coarse apron and a piece of riband were tied loosely around the neck."

There's your "1 piece of old white apron."

What happened to the apron Eddowes was supposedly wearing, the one from which "Jack" sliced off a section and dumped in Goulston Street?

Regards,

Simon

It's one and the same wouldn't you think?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Gideon,

Frankly, I wouldn't.

I would expect to see on Collard's list something like "1 piece of old white apron" plus "1 apron attached by strings to body with portion detached." Similar to that reported by, I believe, the doctor.

How could Collard have missed what was probably the most pivotal piece of evidence in the WM?

It's a mystery in itself.

Regards,

Simon

[Gideon Fell]

Hi Gideon,

Frankly, I wouldn't.

I would expect to see on Collard's list something like "1 piece of old white apron" plus "1 apron attached by strings to body with portion detached." Similar to that reported by, I believe, the doctor.

How could Collard have missed what was probably the most pivotal piece of evidence in the WM?

It's a mystery in itself.

Regards,

Simon

That's quite an assumption you are making there Simon, based, might I add, on an early and possibly faulty press report. Surely you are not suggesting that the piece of apron was missing?

[perrymason]

Since the list recently posted was for items found on Kate Eddowes, I dont see why a bloody piece of her clothing found off Goulston would be listed there....as the bloody piece was siezed evidence on Metro soil....which raises an interesting jurisdictional issue...is it automatically the property of City Investigators?

Cheers all.

[Gideon Fell]

Since the list recently posted was for items found on Kate Eddowes, I dont see why a bloody piece of her clothing found off Goulston would be listed there....as the bloody piece was siezed evidence on Metro soil....which raises an interesting jurisdictional issue...is it automatically the property of City Investigators?

Cheers all.

I think that Simon is talking about the rest of the apron that was left on the body, not the Goulston Street piece which was taken to the City mortuary anyway for comparison with the half left on the body.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Gideon,

Yes, I was referring to the piece of apron left on Eddowes' body.

Sorry, I have to go out. I'll return to this later.

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Gideon,

My apologies for earlier. I was in a tetchy mood and smarting for an arguement.

Sorry.

Monty

[Gideon Fell]

Hi Gideon,

Frankly, I wouldn't.

I would expect to see on Collard's list something like "1 piece of old white apron" plus "1 apron attached by strings to body with portion detached." Similar to that reported by, I believe, the doctor.

How could Collard have missed what was probably the most pivotal piece of evidence in the WM?

It's a mystery in itself.

Regards,

Simon

Well I don't think that he did miss it at all, the following from Collard's inquest statement and Inspector McWilliam's report, respectively -

[Gideon Fell]

Gideon,

My apologies for earlier. I was in a tetchy mood and smarting for an arguement.

Sorry.

Monty

Hey Monty, I think that you are an absolutely great guy - you know I do. Nowt to apologise for.

[Natalie Severn]

Returning again to PC Harvey"s testimony , it may be worth us considering the implications of it by comparing it with Mr Lawende"s.
PC Harvey's own words at Eddowes Inquest:

[relevant section of statement] ".......At twenty to two on Sunday morning I went down Duke Street and down Church Passage as far as Mitre square.I saw no one.I heard no cry or noise.When I got to Aldgate returning to Duke Street I heard a whistle blown and saw the witness Morris with a lamp.I went to him and asked what was the matter.He said,A woman has been ripped up in Mitre Square".

[ relevant section of] Mr Lawende"s statement:

".....we left there[The Imperial Club]to go out at half past one and we left the house 5 minutes later.I walked a little further from the others.Standing in the corner of Church Passage in Duke Street ......."



So we have PC Harvey,setting his time a little earlier by The Post Office Clock on the corner at Aldgate.He has left Houndsditch via Little Duke Street and has moved into Duke Street.It is about 80 yards from this point to Church Passage and it was 1.40 when he reached Church Passage.So if it took him two to three minutes to walk down Duke Street and into Church Passage, ie walking at an average pace-then he must have been walking down Duke Street as Lawende ,Levy and Harris were moving away at 1.37.am.He must have seen at least one of them,if not all three---but he sees no one.Also ,in 1888,there was no turn off down Duke Street for the three men-Lawende and co---presuming they moved off away from PC Harvey rather than moved towards him.The street was then prefectly straight all the way down so PC Harvey would have seen them walking off if all these times synchronised.But he didnt see them and they didnt see him-and they should have......

[Tom_Wescott]

The Apron

Collard didn't omit the apron piece still attached to Eddowes, because it would have been removed and taken elsewhere to compare against the piece found in Goulston street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

I considered that possibility, but in answer to the coroner's question about the piece of apron found in Goulston Street, Doctor Brown testified—

"I fitted that portion which was spotted with blood to the remaining portion, which was still attached by the strings to the body."

Regards,

Simon