Questioning PC Harveys testimony.

[Natalie Severn]

I have been thinking about the fact that PC Harvey didnt see Kate at all that night,and I wonder if he knew she had been arrested and put in Bishopsgate Police Station.It seems likely that PC Robinson who picked her up and PC Simmons who helped him get her to the police station had gone off duty, but was there any one else to pass on gossip...Station Sargeant James Byfield perhaps, who was on duty one and a half hours before PC Harvey went on duty.
The reason I ask is because this woman,found in the region of Aldgate at 8.30 pm had been in that region since leaving Kelly at 2pm and surely someone somewhere must have been seen around that day ?Mike"s post seems very reasonable to me.She came back to Aldgate because she was going to try to meet or watch out for someone there -----but instead got watched and caught herself.I still wonder about her looking out for the ripper-hoping to get a reward,like the Superintendent of the lodging house reported she said[East London Observer 13 October 1888.
Natalie

[perrymason]

I still wonder about her looking out for the ripper-hoping to get a reward,like the Superintendent of the lodging house reported she said[East London Observer 13 October 1888.
Natalie

Me too Nats....I believe that was a real conversation that the landlady related, I think its how Kate got hammered that day, and possibly why she gets herself killed. I also think John Kelly knew something about what transpired Saturday with Kate.

Cheers Miss Natalie

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Personally, I believe that that whole story is a fairytale with no basis of truth in it - the reason for her ending up in Aldgate and Mitre Square was most likely that she ntended to try her luck since Mitre Square at night was a rather well known hang-out for prostitutes and with a bad reputation as soon as darkness fell. She probably didn't want to go home to John Kelly without any money in her pocket, since she wasted all she had on drink.

No need to spice things up with romantic stories that are not verified by other sources. It seems highly unlikely that she had set up a meeting with someone; how could she know she would drink herself pissed and end up in the nick? Not to mention, how would she know when she would be let out? It just doesn't make sense. She went to Mitre Square in order to solicit - period.

All the best

[jerryd]

I have been thinking about the fact that PC Harvey didnt see Kate at all that night,and I wonder if he knew she had been arrested and put in Bishopsgate Police Station.

Hi Nat,

Without proper police protocol knowledge, I am taking an educated guess here so bear with me. PC Harvey stated he went on duty that night at 9:45. Kate was in the police station at 8:45. I would assume a policeman checks in at the office before he goes out on his beat? That would mean that Harvey and Eddowes would have been in the same building at the same time at some point in the night. Did they see each other? That I don't know for sure but Kate's fire engine impression was probably the talk of the station in my opinion.

jerryd

[perrymason]

Glenn,

Im not so sure that these are baseless stories. The investigators suggested the possibility themselves, and as I said, this need not be a meeting affixed to a specified time, rather a specified place. There is almost certainly a story that relates somehow to Kates death that is linked with her last afternoon getting drunk. She had no money, she seems uninterested in John Kelly her last 24 hours, and he seems not so surprised that he hasnt seen her by Sunday morning...then Monday. These two supposedly slept together in a room they rented regularly every night, yet Kate disappears from Friday night on. And he isnt worried apparently. And her action is indicated as without hesitation at the station door, she turns left...she doesnt go outside and stand for a minute thinking where she might find John, she turns left....

I think perhaps there may be some Irish component here that we do not have, because as has been pointed out, Fenians were also on the list of "watch-fors" that night near Mitre.

Wouldnt Kate's standing around there waiting... then being met by someone she has been told to look for, appear as a simple whore/client pick-up? The only thing is we dont know she ever worked that area before, or would think to once released.

She is somehow drawn to that specific location I think, and when you think about "cutting off someones nose to spite their face"....it might fit together somehow.

Cheers Glenn

[Sam Flynn]

...we're straying into "Did Kate know the Ripper?" territory here. Unless PC Harvey was bound to Eddowes by some weird quantum entanglement, it's unlikely that Kate's alleged speculation about JTR's identity had anything to do with what Harvey did that night, still less the events that informed his witness testimony.

[perrymason]

You are like a hall monitor sometimes Gareth, but what can I say, youre always correct.

I think the question really boils down to, could Harvey have missed seeing something on the ground with a person kneeling over it.. even if only as shadows or silhouettes. Cause if he did as he says, he looked when the killer must still have been there. Every minute you shave off the killers actual time spent cutting eliminates another pause, or moment of indecision, and to think everything done was planned ahead is a stretch, ...he would still be there if he only gets her alone, let alone dead, by 1:36-37.

I dont want to assume Harvey was incompetent, but to not see anything if doing a thorough visual inspection of the square from the passage entrance would be. Being 30 seconds behind his beat time and skipping the church passage check, knowing Watkins is on his way anyway, would be a logical call I think to stay on time.

There is also the matter of his testimony, which according to the Telegraph was, ...."I was there at the time of the murder, but did not see any one nor hear any cry" And...."[Coroner] At what time previous to that were you in Aldgate? - [Harvey] At twenty-eight minutes past one o'clock I passed the post-office clock.". How could he know he was there at precisely the time the killer was if his last time reading was 14 minutes earlier.

Cheers all.

[Monty]

It wasnt Harveys duty to exactly know who was in the cells. He may have been aware of the drunk in cell 2, name of nothing but most likely not. It was the Station Sarge, Gaoler and Inspectors duty to know.

[Natalie Severn]

Yes,it still seems to me to be very odd that not a single person saw her arriving at Mitre Square-especially since there was PC Harvey patrolling the streets of Houndsditch/Dukes Place/Bevis Marks/Aldgate , and PC Watkins patrolling Leadenhall Street/Mitre Street. So we have PC Harvey, and PC Holland apparently patrolling Aldgate itself,PC Watkins was also patrolling the Mitre Street end of Aldgate itself ----it formed part of all their beats. Additional to these uniformed policemen there were the plain clothes police watching the same strip of street which forms the south side of Mitre Square ie Aldgate itself----so the square was more or less surrounded by police.The only other exit-St James exit ,led past ex policeman Morris with his door ajar brushing a hallway.Thenyou would have had to go by the side of his ware house through to St James Square where yet another nightwatchman[named Blenkinsop?] was posted on duty- he did say he thought he had seen a couple pass by earlier but took little notice.
But in fairness to Harvey,I think he may not have been able to see that far over to the darkest corner of Mitre Square from Church Passage.On the other hand how on earth ,if that was the case, was the Ripper himself able to see-especially regarding the tricky job of removing the kidney and other internal organs, but even more especially when he made those teeny weeny vertical nicks to her eyelids with the flick end of his knife?
So Monty-----can you give us a hint-------how come?
Best
Natalie

[Monty]

Hey Nats,

How come to what?

The eyelids? I suggest you read the inquest testimony of the first doctor on the scene.

No one saw Kate? of course she was seen, she wasnt invisible. Problem is that no one recollects her. I suspect there was nothing suspicious about the little woman shambling towards Aldgate.

Monty

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Exactly, Monty.
All the best

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Monty,
Well yes I am still a bit surprised that NOT ONE of several policemen on duty in or around the square can recall her seeing her.But Ok that wasnt what I was talking about actually .
No, what I was wondering was how come PC Harvey couldnt see anything at all when he went as far as the entrance to Mitre Square----which is no more than 50 feet from the murder scene,and yet the Ripper could see perfectly well,at exactly that time ie 1.40- sufficiently to make two tiny vertical cuts,one on either eye.Few people could do that in the darkest corner of Mitre Square----if it was that dark.And if it wasnt that dark-----then why couldnt PC Harvey see Kate being murdered and or cut up?
She was found dead at 1.45........
Surely you can see what I mean now?PC Harvey was there at the very moment of murder yet he didnt see a thing whereas the Ripper could see well enough to make two intricate cuts---in amidst all the other mess he created.
Best Wishes
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

BTW I am not the only person to have registered some surprise.Paul Begg asks the very same question in his book JtR ,The Definitive History.
Cheers
Natalie

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Nats,

Surely you can see what I mean now?PC Harvey was there at the very moment of murder yet he didnt see a thing whereas the Ripper could see well enough to make two intricate cuts

Firstly, there's little that's intricate about two tiny nicks on the eyelids, and such wounds could easily be inflicted blindfold in a coal-cellar. Secondly, the Ripper was closer to Kate and would have been able to make out more, by mere dint of his proximity to the body, than Harvey at a distance ever would. That's assuming both Ripper and Harvey were in the square at the same time, of course - and I see no compelling reason to suggest that they were.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

And as has been said before, based on the regulations of the police patroling there would be no reason for Harvey to pay any attention to movements or sounds on a beat that belonged to Watkins and not his own, unless he could establish with certainty that a crime or murder was occurring.

All the best