Questioning PC Harveys testimony.

[Natalie Severn]

Its strange nobody saw or heard anything with all the coppers there were about that night round Aldgate, Mike.
Three,wise and monkeys certainly comes to mind----but more in terms of all these policemen-none of whom heard or saw a thing!
BTW if it was raining that would likely account for Kate"s clothes being wet.He could also have had an "accident" when in such a maniacal hurry ofcourse.
Best
Natalie

[Fisherman]

Natalie writes:

"Get off!"

Not on stuff like this, Natalie..!

and continues:

"No Fisherman,Catherine Eddowes worrying about getting home to her partner is total mythology.Think about it-she didnt bother about John Kelly when she was getting flat on the floor drunk that afternoon-and him without shoes since he had to pawn them to get them both some breakfast that day.
Besides,Kate did not turn right which would have taken her straight home....."

Natalie, I am not saying that this was what delayed her. I am saying that this is one of the umpteen thousand things that MAY have delayed her. That amounts to some difference, I should think.
And as for total mythology, I must say that a scenario where she arrives twenty minutes earlier than assumed, where PC:s go intermittently blind, where a couple with a Kate Eddowes lookalike appears in Church Passage and where Kates blood makes a solemn promise not to clot - that is a far better fit to such a description.

The best, Natalie!
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Hi Nats,

Seems you got my Pearce reference, even though I spelled it Peace. When added up, there are no less than 6 City active Policeman, and one or two retired ones at or around, or near Mitre Square when Kate is killed. When one Constable finds her, there are 3 city policeman at that same location..one retired. And one left just minutes before apparently.

But one slept, overlooking the crime scene, one missed seeing anything even though he must have looked in when the killer is there, one hears nothing while the murder is occurring outside his open door, and one enters just as the killer must have left.

Choreographed indeed. Its like handing off the baton to the next guy,...and who would imagine that they all might be up to something.

Cheers Nats.

[Sam Flynn]

Allegedly, Eddowes was out staggering around the streets from 1.00 am

...slight correction: she was released from the cells at around 1.00 am, Simon - that doesn't mean she wandered the streets for the remaining half-hour or so of her life. The entrance to Liverpool Street Station was just across the road from Bishopsgate nick, and there were doubtless other doorways nearby, where she could have sheltered from the shower that postponed Lawende and co's departure from the club.

[Sam Flynn]

Cue Harvey...the killer slips into the shadows, Harvey doesnt see Kate lying there

...holding his cacky hand at an angle of 45° from his body, hoping the wind doesn't blow the stench of Eddowes' opened bowels into Harvey's nostrils.

Crime scene, Killers POV: The killer gets back to cutting and tearing the apron piece

...phew (in more ways than one!) - what a relief

[Natalie Severn]

Natalie writes:

"Get off!"

Not on stuff like this, Natalie..!

and continues:

"No Fisherman,Catherine Eddowes worrying about getting home to her partner is total mythology.Think about it-she didnt bother about John Kelly when she was getting flat on the floor drunk that afternoon-and him without shoes since he had to pawn them to get them both some breakfast that day.
Besides,Kate did not turn right which would have taken her straight home....."

Natalie, I am not saying that this was what delayed her. I am saying that this is one of the umpteen thousand things that MAY have delayed her. That amounts to some difference, I should think.
And as for total mythology, I must say that a scenario where she arrives twenty minutes earlier than assumed, where PC:s go intermittently blind, where a couple with a Kate Eddowes lookalike appears in Church Passage and where Kates blood makes a solemn promise not to clot - that is a far better fit to such a description.

The best, Natalie!
Fisherman

Fisherman,
Its not true that it was a Kate Eddowes "look alike". Lawende didnt have any idea what she looked like-he didnt see her face for a start ----read his testimony again.He said they were the same clothes as the ones worn by the woman he saw.But didnt they all wear similar bonnets and dark jackets? Name one of them who dressed differently.Besides,she has a green floral skirt on which he never mentioned and that is rather strange because it was distinctively marked with daisies.

Mitre Square,we are told was a regular haunt for "business transactions".Why not another woman soliciting?
I dont personally believe the Ripper would have allowed his face to be seen only half an hour after the Stride murder.Especially since he was planning a second murder.Murder carried the death penalty-death by hanging.
Also this elusiveness of the Ripper is what has kept the case going for 118 years-----noone knew who he was and he managed to avoid capture.
Only a half wit would have let his face be seen by three men looking over at him, just after he had killed someone.The man Lawende saw was allowing his face to be seen while his chest was being stroked.That wasnt the Ripper!
Natalie

Sam,
Kate would not have lost time "sheltering" anywhere.She needed a drink for crying out loud.She probably tore round to Aldgate- or to wherever she got drunk earlier that day , somewhere she would have known was still open and where she COULD get that much needed drink-its why she pestered Hutt like that.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

Do you honestly, truthfully, cross your heart and hope to die, believe the authorised version of the Eddowes killing?

If it was a movie you'd have to call it Polly Nichols II. The plot's the same—two cops on adjoining beats [one having passed the murder scene a short while before], neither one seeing or hearing anything suspicious, until . . . cue strident music, close-up on gore-strewn victim.

But as with all sequels, the producers in their wisdom have decided to add in a surprise plot twist or two so the audience believe they're watching something new and don't fall asleep.

"Get this, Mister Spielberg—the victim has only just been released from the Bishopsgate slammer, yet walks straight into the "Ripper" fresh from an earlier murder, plus there's extra cops on the City streets that night. Tom Cruise can play Daniel Halse, Detective Officer, City Police. We've got some great lines for him—

"On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry, I directed a number of police in plain clothes to patrol the streets of the City all night."

"Yeah, Mister Spielberg, I know there's been no "Ripper" activity for the past three weeks. Sure, extra cops on the streets that night are a colossal coincidence, but when has that ever bothered movie-goers? Extra plain-clothes cops in the area make it harder for the murderer to escape. They've got the place sewn up tight. But guess what? The "Ripper" still manages to give them the slip, drop a bloody piece of the victim's apron under their noses and, as a final coup de grace, chalk an anti-Semetic message on a wall.

"They'll never buy it."

"Sure they will, Mister Spielberg. Here's a fat cheque. Go make it work."

Polly Nichols II has now been running for 120 years.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,
Kate would not have lost time "sheltering" anywhere.She needed a drink for crying out loud.

We don't know that, Nats. Furthermore, we don't know if Kate knew of a watering-hole in the vicinity that was open at that time of the morning. (Apart from private clubs, were there any?) It's possible that Kate was somewhat dopey after her binge and subsequent snooze in the cells, so the notion of her "tearing around Aldgate" doesn't quite chime either.

We know that there was a downpour shortly after Kate's release because of the testimony of Lawende and company. It seems reasonable to suggest that, whether Kate intended to find some booze or not, she might well have been caught in it and ducked out of the way to avoid the worst of the rain.

[Natalie Severn]

When you put it like that Simon, you have me wondering once again about a choreographed scenario.There is something very strange about the numbers of police patrolling the streets,yet none catching a glimpse of him.
Mostly though the plain clothes ones were after Fenians,not the Ripper.
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Sam,
It would seem reasonable to most reasonable people,Sam,but from the time she left a shoeless and penniless John Kelly through to her getting plastered and put in the lock up, and being released to go home at 1 am but heading in the opposite direction to home there seems very little if anything that is "reasonable" about Kate"s behaviour.In fact it all seems rather tragically "unreasonable" .
Best Wishes
Natalie

[Monty]

Addressing a few points.

The heavy rain had eased since midnight, leaving no reason to suspect Eddowes clothing to be wet. Damp possibly.

These police conspiracy theories make no sense. Pearce was off duty and Halse n co were not specifically on Jack duty.

Eddowes, it would seem, was heading to the fairly heavily populated Aldgate for business. She may have serviced 1 or 2 punters since her release.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Nats,

from the time she left a shoeless and penniless John Kelly through to her getting plastered and put in the lock up, and being released to go home at 1 am but heading in the opposite direction to home

If it had started to rain within a short time of her release from the Bishopsgate cells, then making a "bee-line" across the road would seem reasonable enough. I found a weather report (before the Casebook crash) indicating a stiff breeze blowing from north-west to south-east that night, which would have driven the rain towards the Bishopsgate police station side of the pavement. Kate would have been less exposed to the rain if she'd taken a temporary detour to the opposite side of the street, taking her away from the direction of "home", but at least offering her some shelter during the time the shower prevailed.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Monty,

The heavy rain had eased since midnight, leaving no reason to suspect Eddowes clothing to be wet

But Lawende, Levy and Harris didn't leave their club until about 01:30, because it had been raining prior to this.

[Monty]

Sam,

I said heavy rain. It was dying out since midnight with the odd shower. Her clothing may have gotten damp, which is why I mentioned that. What Im saying is that she wouldnt have been soaked.

Monty

[Natalie Severn]

The heavy rain had eased since midnight, leaving no reason to suspect Eddowes clothing to be wet. Damp possibly.

These police conspiracy theories make no sense. Pearce was off duty and Halse n co were not specifically on Jack duty.

Eddowes, it would seem, was heading to the fairly heavily populated Aldgate for business. She may have serviced 1 or 2 punters since her release.

With respect Monty I dont think so. None of the autopsy reports give an indication of any "servicing" having taken place as far as I am aware.A woman known for her drinking,which Kate was,being picked up forbeing D&D,sounds to me like a woman in difficulty over drink.It sounds like she had been at some place in the afternoon where she had had drinks in return maybe for -whatever......But in my opinion,for her to have done anything other than try to scrounge drink after a night locked up is really doubtful-if she was addicted to drink that is which she seems to have been----like each and every one of them.


Sam,
It is sometimes folly to look for reasonable behaviour in such cases as these.None of it is even remotely "reasonable".
Anyway,as Monty says,it appears not to have been raining all that much when she was let out.

Best
Natalie