Questioning PC Harveys testimony.

[perrymason]

Just a couple of points made Id like to address.....

I do realize that many of the characters surround the Mitre Murder are guesstimating times, but its my suspicion that Lawende, Levy and Harris are all leaving together because the club closed at 1:30am to members that night. And Watkins had a watch I believe, as did Morris.

On the issue of her id by clothing, she had only recently bought that jacket when away hopping..as I think were Johns boots I believe,...anyway, since she is the type of unfortunate that wears her complete wardrobe and everything she owns daily, a newer garment might stand out...even if black. And generic or not, Lawende says in the rest of the sentence Monty didnt put in bold, that he thought she was wearing those particular clothes.

I think though Natalie makes a convincing argument for Kates left turn as being one of a parched throat or an unfortunate needing cash, I believe her going to find someone at or near that location...with no prearranged time, is possible. On Paper, she pawned Kellys boots Friday night, not Saturday morning, ...so she may not have seen the man she is partnered with since Friday night when she comes back to give him some money from the pawning. We know they dont stay together that last night. So my thinking is that her having no money now, his going to the market Saturday to hopefully make some, ....I assume barefoot...her condition which is likely essentially an awake hangover, and the fact that to return to where she normally lives, and John is, requires a right turn at the station house door....makes me think she had some plan...to make money, stay with friends, find someone...maybe her afternoon drinking partner...

Sorry.....I tend to weave one thread premise around other circumstantial stuff....returning to thread....

As I said, if we can be somewhat safe with Lawende and Co.'s timing, and with Watkins...because he either has a watch or Morris does, then you have the full allocation of time available, when adding the walk to the site, the subduing, the minimum time needed for the mutilations, including new ones and removal of a piece of the victims clothing, and the time needed to get out of the square using 1 of 3 entrances, 1 of which was supposedly just patrolled to the square start by a constable, and a second that has one approaching in it. His only exit really is the carriageway, which requires crossing the open square.....unless Harvey never entered the passage and the killer left via that exit.

If Lawende was accurate within a minute or two, as was Watkins, the killer of Kate Eddowes would almost certainly still be in the square, finishing a murder, over a victim, at 1:42. If Harvey was there as he swore, at the time he swore to, then he is responsible for the escape of the murderer that night. Or....he wasnt there, and had to live with his claim anyway.

I think Door # 2, but to each his own.

Best regards all.

[Natalie Severn]

Fisherman,
I think you are right, its not really the thread for a big discussion about Brights Disease here so if you dont mind I will just stick to my "unease" over the traditional amount of time allocated for the Mitre square murder and the comings and goings of PC Harvey.
Its my view he spoke the truth.That he did not see either Lawende and Co or the couple they allege they saw because someone was wrong in their timing.
But first I would ask you and Ben two questions:
i]The Berner Street murder does indeed appear to have taken place at about 12.50.
So what did he do with himself between leaving Berner Street soon after 1.50 and arriving at Mitre Square at 1.35 ---since thats the time when Lawende is alleged to have seen the couple? Please do remember that it would take a person no more than ten minutes to get there from Berner Street-so what did he do in the half hour left him? twiddle his thumbs?

ii]What did Kate do with herself after reaching Mitre Square at 1.10 -at latest . She would have had 25 minutes or more to "twiddle her thumbs" after reaching Church Passage -it takes 7 minutes to get there walking at a reasonable ,unhurried, pace from Bishopsgate Police Station.Where did she go?


Mike,
Thanks for a really helpful post.I doubt he was barefoot Mike---he would have been loaned some old shoes probably.That sort of spirit of helping each other out was the reason more didnt die of starvation and cold.
Cheers
Natalie

[perrymason]

Hi Nats,

I hope you meant that, because despite my obvious stubborn streak, I am trying to help....

I wonder if there might be other factors that might have slightly affected beats in that area that night, due to the lane and alley searches that were going on nearby that night by Marriot, Halse and Outram. I wonder if Harvey knew Pearce lived in the square, and thought it ok to skip one pass or two based on that fact.

I for one would much rather find a reason for him not to be there at that time, than to assume that with all the mutilations performed on Kate the killer would still able to be gone by 1:42am.
I know many say the injuries werent skilled and might have just been slash and grabbing.....but no one seems to feel he might pause here and there, choose a next action, or fumble a bit when he gets feces on him, or freeze for a second if he thinks he hears footsteps. If he had every cut planned ahead, got her down fast and started cutting almost continually....maybe enough time. But any hesitation or pauses add up.

The thing is... if he was there actually a few minutes earlier, and just mistook the time, then he would surely be there when the killer was still over Kate.....and he cant have been any later than he said, because Watkins had found Kate. Plus, add in where he was found and notified of the murder.

He couldnt have been later than 1:42...and he couldnt have been earlier than 1:42 and not seen the killer over Kate if he looked into the square at all.....so he was either there when he said, and he didnt see the Ripper almost ready to leave, or leaving, or Kate lying there, or.... he wasnt there at all... that pass.

Id rather assume he was trying to catch up on his beat time, than assume he was careless enough not to check well enough to see a murder happening.

Best regards all.

[Fisherman]

Natalie writes:
"if you dont mind I will just stick to my "unease" over the traditional amount of time allocated for the Mitre square murder and the comings and goings of PC Harvey."
"
Of course I don´t mind. And the topic is interesting, making a good idea altogether.

"The Berner Street murder does indeed appear to have taken place at about 12.50.
So what did he do with himself between leaving Berner Street soon after 1.50 (0.50 - my correction) and arriving at Mitre Square at 1.35 ---since thats the time when Lawende is alleged to have seen the couple? Please do remember that it would take a person no more than ten minutes to get there from Berner Street".

Well, Natalie... As far as I´m concerned, the Ripper was never at Berner Street. And if I am to venture a guess at what time Stride had her throat cut, I will shove it somewhat towards the further end of the schedule, perhaps 0.55-ish or so.

If it was the Ripper, though, why did it take so long time for him to move to Mitre Square? That question is of course only relevant if we can assure ourselves that he took the shortest way there, right? If the old view is to be employed, he set of from Berner Street insatiated, and dead set on finding someone to mutilate. No need to accept that the area around Mitre Square would have been the only thing that lept to mind. He may well have taken a somewhat erratic path there.

And the same of course applies for Eddowes. No reports from her journey, and therefore we cannot say that she headed directly for that venue, though in her case it seems more credible to believe that such was the case - there was money to be made in the vicinity of St Botolph´s.
But that applied for other venues too. Maybe she first tried other hunting grounds, only to find out that they were deserted by that evening´s punters, and only then did she resort to the Mitre Square area?

Anyhow, as I never fail to point out that a scenario without Jack present in Dutfields Yard simplifies matters and brings clarity to the picture, I will do so now too - if he was not there, the need to explain the time it took him to get to Mitre Square is no longer there. Simpler, as always when you detach Stride from the canon!

The best, Natalie!
Fisherman

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Mike----ofcourse I meant it.
I have to go out in a minute but before I go I want to just say that I cant see PC Harvey being over interested in the corner near Mitre Street where Kate was found-simply because it wasnt his job to be,PC Watkins I believe was responsible for it and even he might not have looked closely to his left either with it being so dark.
I sometimes wonder---was Kate sick-----there was water[bile?] found on her clothes? Did she go into the square to wretch perhaps after her hangover?Was Jack cutting through the square- just behind her ,and came across her wretching?
Whatever the answer I am convinced that both Jack and Kate were there by 1.15-both of them,and not 1.35 with Jack allowing himself to be seen like that.
Cheers
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Fisherman,
Yes,all those scenarios are possible.The only thing is we disagree over Elizabeth Stride.Well I know it makes matters simpler but it doesnt mean because its simpler its right!
No I go with the clear similarities of the method of subdue followed by swift strangulation .She also had bruising on her chest,seen in one or two others and the throat cut was "skillful" not "botched "---and well thats enough for me thankyou ,----two similar "throatcuts" on women of similar age and "occupation" and "addiction" both within a half mile of each other and 15 minutes apart-----?
So if you believe Stride was a ripper victim iots a whole different ball game.
And one where I doubt he loitered on his way to MItre Square.
As for Kate "loitering"----this is where I believe she would have been copped again if seen dawdling on her way to Mitre Square.She had to get to where she was headed without getting her collar felt again.However tipsy she still was, Kate would not have made that mistake.
Cheers
Natalie

[Fisherman]

Hi Natalie!

"two similar "throatcuts" on women of similar age and "occupation" and "addiction" both within a half mile of each other and 15 minutes apart-----?"

Yes, it rather borders on the perfect alibi, does it not? Needless to say, where you look at similarities, I prefer going for the dissimilarities, and those are around aplenty...

But, as I think we have both agreed on, that stuff is for other threads!

On the Ripper, I never suggested that he loitered on his way to Mitre Square (if we are to accept that he did Stride). He may well have been busy as a little bee. But there can be no certainty that he actually opted for a beeline Berner Street - Mitre Square, just as I said in my former post. Just like Kate may have found some hunting ground somewhere else empty of presumptive customers, the Ripper may well have settled for another place than St Botolphs to pick up a lady, only to find out that there were no (suitable?) such about.
Mitre Square could have been his second choice. Or third, for that matter.

The best, Natalie!
Fisherman

[Monty]

Guys,

I think the fact that she was murdered not far from where Robinson picked her up is an indication it was an area she felt comfortable with.

Also, the is the PCs news report that he recognised Eddowes from the Aldgate area.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Absolutely, Monty! But the Aldgate area is made up of numerous streets, where numerous PC:s would have walked their beats, and Kate would not have had them all sorted out timetablewise, would she?

Then again, if she had a favourite venue that she stuck to, there is of course the possibility that such a thing may have included knowledge of Watkins´beat and the reoccuring pipesmoking sessions of Morris. One has to admit that it would make good sense for business on her behalf.
May in fact even have included servicing nervous customers with chosen bits of that timetable: "No worries, love - the copper won´t be back these next ten minutes, so you´ve got all the time you´ll need..."

Since prostitutes have their favourite spots, and since they don´t take kindly to competition over those spots, there is of course the obvious possibility that "Rippers corner" was in fact "Kates corner" up til that evening. It will to some extent hang on how much of a full-time/part-time prostitute Kate was, and how attractive a spot the corner was for business.

Makes you wonder about Buck´s Row, though - I never had that spot figured for a chosen favourite spot for any prostitute, no matter how desperate. Of course, the desperation included there could have been on Jack´s behalf...

The best, Monty!
Fisherman

[Monty]

Hi Fisherman,

...But the Aldgate area is made up of numerous streets, where numerous PC:s would have walked their beats, and Kate would not have had them all sorted out timetablewise, would she?

The beats had been reversed that night. She had been picked up at 8.30pm. The Evening beats where led out at 9.45pm and up and running by 10pm. She couldnt have studied them by then.

However, she had enough time since her release to get to the Square and study Watkins beat should she wish to.

Then again, if she had a favourite venue that she stuck to, there is of course the possibility that such a thing may have included knowledge of Watkins´beat and the reoccuring pipesmoking sessions of Morris. One has to admit that it would make good sense for business on her behalf.
May in fact even have included servicing nervous customers with chosen bits of that timetable: "No worries, love - the copper won´t be back these next ten minutes, so you´ve got all the time you´ll need..."

Exactly. Not favoured by the occultists though.

Since prostitutes have their favourite spots, and since they don´t take kindly to competition over those spots, there is of course the obvious possibility that "Rippers corner" was in fact "Kates corner" up til that evening. It will to some extent hang on how much of a full-time/part-time prostitute Kate was, and how attractive a spot the corner was for business

Again, take the distance from Aldgate High Street to Mitre Square. Then look at the distance from Whitechapel High Street and Bucks Row. The same could be said for Commercial Road and Hanbury Street. Little nooks not far from the busy thoroughfares where the clientel is rife. All the murder site were ideal for 'business'.

Makes you wonder about Buck´s Row, though - I never had that spot figured for a chosen favourite spot for any prostitute, no matter how desperate. Of course, the desperation included there could have been on Jack´s behalf...

I dont know, seem pretty ok to me. Its certainly away from Mulshaw, who it is suspected was nightwatching street works in Winthrop Street. After all, Cross didnt see anyone else prior to finding Nichols.

Cheers

Monty

[Fisherman]

Hi Monty!

"However, she had enough time since her release to get to the Square and study Watkins beat should she wish to."

...which may be a very fitting answer to the question Natalie asked about why it seemingly took her more than half an hour to reach a spot that lay within ten normal minutes of walking. Could all have been about business prearrangements in other words. Plausible enough!

This all makes you wonder how the beats of the prostitutes looked in 1888. Did they go on display in very limited space, always standing at the same street corner or in the same doorway, or did they stroll around, covering larger areas? Has some bearing on how much they would know about the P C beats and what nightwatchmen to keep an eye out for! Is there any good information about this? I know there are mentionings of prostitutes working a couple of streets, but did they work more than one spot every night, or did they change spots from night to night, standing at more or less fixed places instead of walking about?

The best, Monty!
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hi Fisherman

I cannot source it but I have read it somewhere that prostitutes had to keep moving. They couldn`t stand outside the door of a pub for example.
Although, standing at the entrance to where they live, Millers Court, would be acceptable.

Walter Dew noted that he would see Kelly parading with one or two friends strolling around the Aldgate area.

I`m sure someone will pull me up if I have recalled this incorrectly.

[Monty]

Fisherman, Jon,

Subsection 54 of the Metropolitan Police Act of 1839 stipulated that 'any common prostitute loitering or soliciting for the purposes of prostitution to the annoyance of inhabitants or passers-by' would be subject to arrest and, if convicted, to a fine, which would increase upon subsequent convictions.

Basically prostitutes could be arrested for loitering if they stood still or soliciting if they approached people.

They could also be picked up if they were considered an annoyance. The police let them congrgate around certain areas and oral tradition mentions St Botolphs. As long as they kept moving and didnt approach anyone they were fine.

Monty

[Jon Guy]

thanks for that Neil.

Hence "street-walkers" I presume

[Natalie Severn]

Watkins insisted Kate"s body was not in that corner at 1.30 am when he had last looked in the Square.I believe its perfectly possible for her body to have been there.The corner was extremely dark,had Watkins merely glanced over towards his right and shone his bulls eye slightly at shoulder or eye level to his right into that corner where her body may have lain, he would have missed her.The black shadows outside the torches glow would have concealed her.
Also ,I really dont think PC Harvey could be expected to venture into that square when it wasnt in his remit.
I think this is important, given the scare that was on,to accept that a lone policeman might not want to walk straight into the path of an armed Jack the Ripper.Especially knowing he would probably pull a knife on them and kill them too.I am sure they dealt with such dubious areas very carefully if they had any sense at all.
Best
Natalie