Questioning PC Harveys testimony.

[Marc]

Thanks Monty !

2 1/2 MpH is quite a good speed for someone walking I'd suppose.
Watkins' lamp beam might have made him relatively unconspicuous, though I don't know how much the gaslight at the corner of Mitre St and Mitre Sq might have "neutralized" the beam effect from Watkins lamp.

Police shoes soles "noise", anyone ?

[Monty]

Marc,

Im sure there are others with better knowledge on the gas lamps of Mitre Square but as far as Im concerned the lamps wouldnt negate Watkins Bulls eye lamp.

Out of the 3 around the square, Mitre street lamp would have been blocked by Tailors shop, the free standing one wasnt working to its fully capcity whilst the Church passage one was. However, gas lamps didnt really emit much light, a really decent gave about as much light as you fridge lamp.

Believe me, Watkins need his lamp in Mitre Square.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Marc,

Im sure there are others with better knowledge on the gas lamps of Mitre Square but as far as Im concerned the lamps wouldnt negate Watkins Bulls eye lamp.

Out of the 3 around the square, Mitre street lamp would have been blocked by Tailors shop, the free standing one wasnt working to its fully capcity whilst the Church passage one was. However, gas lamps didnt really emit much light, a really decent gave about as much light as you fridge lamp.

Believe me, Watkins need his lamp in Mitre Square.

Monty

I wonder what kind of a lamp the killer had to be able to see to remove the organs

[Monty]

He used a Miners lamp Trevor....duh!

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

He used a Miners lamp Trevor....duh!

Monty

Of course why didnt I think of that. I forgot it was standard issue to all would be killers and organ thieves at that time

[Monty]

I thought the organ takers had the mortuary lamp to work by.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

I thought the organ takers had the mortuary lamp to work by.

Monty

They did but couldnt carry it around it was to heavy, hence the portable head version for murder only numbered BS OHSAS 18001

[Marc]

Out of the 3 around the square, Mitre street lamp would have been blocked by Tailors shop, the free standing one wasnt working to its fully capcity whilst the Church passage one was. However, gas lamps didnt really emit much light, a really decent gave about as much light as you fridge lamp.

Believe me, Watkins need his lamp in Mitre Square.

Monty

You're believed Monty
Very interesting points with regards to this area public
lighting, thx !

My understanding so far was that gaslights were actually intended to provide enough light for anyone to read a plan for direction under them then move to the next gaslight/street corner, but perhaps I was wrong.

BTW, what about moonlight ?
I'd suppose someone must have researched the amount of moonlight JTR might have to cope with if he had forgotten its miner lighting kit at home ?

[Busy Beaver]

Trevor, you are quite correct by saying that we don't know how many people were walking about/around the murder scenes early in the morning. We know that there would have been workers on their way to the markets between 3.00am and 5.00am, Nightwatchman returning home around 6.00am-7.00am, shop keepers/workers starting from 6.00am, dock workers possibly all hours depending on how busy the port of London was and homeless people out on the streets all night. It is incredibly annoying that no one really saw a great deal. Which goes back to your comment that the Prostitutes obviously knew where to take a client so they would not get disturbed either by people on their way to work and more importantly- Policemen. Whitechapel being a mixture of different social classes would either scream abuse at the prostitute and her client, or encourage her and her client. I also wonder how manu prostitutes were also out on the nights Jack committed her murders? Are there any police records showing women & clients being moved on? That would also be an interesting find.

Busy Beaver

[Marc]

We know that there would have been workers on their way to the markets between 3.00am and 5.00am, Nightwatchman returning home around 6.00am-7.00am, shop keepers/workers starting from 6.00am, dock workers possibly all hours depending on how busy the port of London was and homeless people out on the streets all night. It is incredibly annoying that no one really saw a great deal. Which goes back to your comment that the Prostitutes obviously knew where to take a client so they would not get disturbed either by people on their way to work and more importantly- Policemen. Whitechapel being a mixture of different social classes would either scream abuse at the prostitute and her client, or encourage her and her client. I also wonder how manu prostitutes were also out on the nights Jack committed her murders? Are there any police records showing women & clients being moved on? That would also be an interesting find.

Indeed, was wondering about the same a few days back while 'roaming' the message board archives.
Read some comment which hinted that while main thoroughfares might have been pretty populated, even by mid-night (at least untill pubs closing ?), lesser streets were rather deserted.
This copes well, FWIW, with my own experience of large cities at night, particularly on week ends.

[Monty]

You're believed Monty
Very interesting points with regards to this area public
lighting, thx !

My understanding so far was that gaslights were actually intended to provide enough light for anyone to read a plan for direction under them then move to the next gaslight/street corner, but perhaps I was wrong.

BTW, what about moonlight ?
I'd suppose someone must have researched the amount of moonlight JTR might have to cope with if he had forgotten its miner lighting kit at home ?

Youre understanding is correct. The area had poor lighting. So much so that within weeks of Eddowes murder the lighting had been improved drastically.

There was no moonlight as it had been raining that night and cloud cover had been pretty vast. There was enough ambient lighting, as stated by one of the Doctors at the scene. Watkins would have required his lamp as he was checking locks, shutters, Coal holes etc.

Theres an argument that Orange Market was being set up yards away in St James Place, however I feel there wouldnt be as many stalls there as the Fire station/streetworks were occuring at that time. We know this due to the fact Blenkinsopp was watching these works.

Monty