Questioning PC Harveys testimony.

[Monty]

Thank you Martin,

I note your appearence here is due to a little catch up for the US Conference. The delegates are lucky to have such a good line up of speakers. I hope they realise how lucky.

Cheers, Monty

[slightreturn2003]

PC James Harvey

Hi..
A few nights ago after reading the posts about PC Harvey's dismisal from the force in 1889 i managed to get in contact with his Great Grandson.
Members of the family have tried via the Met to find out why James was dismissed but havent had any luck so far.
I did find out that the records which include joining, service, leaving and dismisal info etc for that time are held at The National Archives in Kew, so i am going there this week to look at what details they hold for the officers on the Eddowes case.
I'll leave a post with the info.
Bari.

[Robert]

Hi Bari

As far as I know, Harvey's records do not actually specify a reason for his dismissal. Also, remember that Harvey was CITY police, not Met.

His warrant number was 5045 and he joined City Police Nov 30th 1876 aged 21 years and 8 months (info Paul Begg).

[slightreturn2003]

PC James Harvey..

Hi..
A few nights ago after reading the posts about PC Harvey's dismisal from the force in 1889 i managed to get in contact with his Great Grandson.
Members of the family have tried via the Met to find out why James was dismissed but havent had any luck so far.
I did find out that the records which include joining, service, leaving and dismisal info etc for that time are held at The National Archives in Kew, so i am going there this week to look at what details they hold for the officers on the Eddowes case.
I'll leave a post with the info.
Bari.

[Chris]

The City of London police staff records are held at the London Metropolitan Archives now. When I looked at the catalogue a while ago it looked as though it would be a fairly involved business to locate the records relating to a specific officer.

[slightreturn2003]

Pc James Harvey

i did ctually locate the reference for the file...im going there on friday to lok at it...i'll post what i find...yes i know the City Met thing..they tried the Met not me!..

[slightreturn2003]

Harveys records..

The records have been transfered to Kew now....

[slightreturn2003]

PC James Harvey's Police Record.

Hi..
Apologies first of all The City Of London Police files are indeed at The Met Archives.
I was there today and managed to look at Harveys files.
The documents and letters cover his entering the force up untill he was dismissed.
There is a hand written letter detailing his general appearance tec on the day of his dismissal, this is the transcript.
Slone Rooms July 1st 1889.
Description of PC 964 James Harvey at the time he left the force July 1st 1889.
Age 34 years 4 months
Height 5 ft 11 inches
Eyes Grey
Hair Brown
Complexion Fair
Marks None.
Dismissed 1st July 1889
Edwin Cossons
P.S. 57.
The actual document giving the reasons for his dismissal is missing, I had them check to see if they had his warrant book there, that is missing too?
although they have similar details about other officers also dismissed at the same time..curious?....Apparently they have no other details for him.
Bari.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi all....

Just read through this entire thread.....very interesting indeed.

For me.....listening to all the arguments.....I'll go with the established wisdom.

That being......

a) The couple Lawende saw was Eddowes and Jack.

b) The timing (1.35) wasn't too far out.

c) The PCs could quite easily have been less than dilligent. I mean.....think of you're own working life and no one is completely focused from morning til evening. Just seems reasonable to me that they wouldn't have been particularly careful to examine every nook and cranny every time they turned a corner......the same corner they'd turned a few times that night. I'd suggest there is nothing suspicious in the behaviour of the PCs.

d) Jack wouldn't have been overly concerned with being seen. Now were it today.....then he would have been....because the risk is much higher....just get an ID and DNA and he'd have been bang to rights. But in those days....just being seen near a crime would not have been enough to lead to a conviction....so being seen was comparatively risk free.

e) Jack wasn't particularly clever nor particularly lucky. He was killing in the dark and could quite easily have hidden in the shadows. When he was finished he just walked away...I'm sure seen not far from the murder scene.....but East London being the place that it was....there was nothing too out of the ordinary about him to warrant him being stopped and detained.

In sum: the period (1880s) and the location meant that he wasn't necessarily taking huge risks by posing as a client and being seen with the victims before they were killed. He pretty much would have had to have been caught in the act.....which was the biggest risk he took.....which supports the notion that he didn't dawdle i.e. 7-9 minutes.

I'm just not seeing how there has to be something more to this....i.e. times hugely wide of the mark.....policemen skipping beats or involved......Lawende seeing another woman......the great mystery in that they both had half an hour to kill......a pre-arranged meet etc etc.

And as for what Jack and Eddowes doing before they met.....could be a thousand things......it would be more unlikely that they happened to bump into one another at the earliest possible time.

And as for knowing the identity of Jack......well....assuming she said it.....and assuming she meant it......I'd hazard a guess that she would have taken care not to go into a dark corner with him.

[harry]

The danger was not in being seen in the company of a victim shortly before she was killed,nor in being seen in the vicinity shortly before or afterwards.It was being recognised in those situations that presented a danger.

[Busy Beaver]

There have been many sentiments placed on the Kelly Murder as being the ONE that will lead to the truth. I think that a little bit more sleuthing on this, the Kate Eddowes murder, an answer may be derived. I, like another case book poster feel that the murder was a bit of a staged play and very key stone cops. We have PC Harvey being or not being in Mitre Square/Church passage at the time he says he was, then we have Mr Lawende and friends sighting a man and a woman just at the entrance of Mitre Square at 1.35am. Why is it suggested that Mr Lawende may have known the man, and was PC Harvey too scared to go into the square alone just in case he saw someone or something? I get the feeling that someone knew something was going to happen that night, hence Jack was not caught red-handed. The night watchman at Tongue & Keely had also claimed somewhere that he came out to the back door of the warehouse when he heard a noise or footsteps. Where was he when Kate was being murdered? Was Jack a Policeman?

Busy Beaver

[Fleetwood Mac]

There have been many sentiments placed on the Kelly Murder as being the ONE that will lead to the truth. I think that a little bit more sleuthing on this, the Kate Eddowes murder, an answer may be derived. I, like another case book poster feel that the murder was a bit of a staged play and very key stone cops. We have PC Harvey being or not being in Mitre Square/Church passage at the time he says he was, then we have Mr Lawende and friends sighting a man and a woman just at the entrance of Mitre Square at 1.35am. Why is it suggested that Mr Lawende may have known the man, and was PC Harvey too scared to go into the square alone just in case he saw someone or something? I get the feeling that someone knew something was going to happen that night, hence Jack was not caught red-handed. The night watchman at Tongue & Keely had also claimed somewhere that he came out to the back door of the warehouse when he heard a noise or footsteps. Where was he when Kate was being murdered? Was Jack a Policeman?

Busy Beaver

Have you considered that as a local man.....assuming you think he was a local man....he was aware of how bobbies' beats worked in terms of timings.

I think it's fair to say that he would have known he had say 10 minutes once a bobby had passed before he came back again.....that is my suggestion as to how he got in and out quickly....i.e. as soon as a bobby passed then he went in knowing roughly how much time he'd have. And it may follow from this that of all the witnesses who supposedly saw JTR....the best candidtae is a copper witness.....as that was JTR's queue to get in a dark corner.

[Busy Beaver]

Fleetwood, you're right, Jack was in a dark corner. Do you think like I do that he was hiding whilst trying to make an escape when the police were entering the square? I also agree with you about Kate, that if she reckoned she knew the killer, she would not go into a dark place with him. Jack definitely knew the Whitechaple area like the back of his hand, and after reading a couple of dissertations and threads, I think it could be reasonable to say Jack studied the policeman's beat routine as well. What better way to escape the police? I can't remember if there is a map of the Mitre Square area with everyone marked on the map with times- It would be very useful- anyone feel free to create one! There is one of PC Harvey's beat.

Busy Beaver

[Monty]

Couple of points...or more.

1. Whilst not entering the square, Harvey is clear in stating he looked into it.

2. The beats were reversed that very night, meaning Harvey and Watkins would arrive at the various relevant sites sooner than the previous nights. Any obs of their beats would have been done the same evening.

3. Morris was conducting duties inside as he did every Saturday night, Sunday morning....which prostitutes would have been aware of.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Fleetwood, you're right, Jack was in a dark corner. Do you think like I do that he was hiding whilst trying to make an escape when the police were entering the square? I also agree with you about Kate, that if she reckoned she knew the killer, she would not go into a dark place with him. Jack definitely knew the Whitechaple area like the back of his hand, and after reading a couple of dissertations and threads, I think it could be reasonable to say Jack studied the policeman's beat routine as well. What better way to escape the police? I can't remember if there is a map of the Mitre Square area with everyone marked on the map with times- It would be very useful- anyone feel free to create one! There is one of PC Harvey's beat.

Busy Beaver

Pc Watkins entered the square at 1.35am the first time and then walked out and back again at 1.44am finding Eddowes at that time. That 9 mins is a very important time not only wirh regards to Eddowes murders but to the whole Ripper mystery

There were not enough police officers to cover ever square inch of Whitechapel or the city. You also have to bear in mind that a policeman might stop and talk to someone or get involved in an incident which would put all his timings and his movements out. If the killer knew the beats etc surely he would have operated in an area not patrolled so regularly. He wouldnt have said to himself "Oh i have excatly 9 mins to take Eddowes into Mitre Square, kill her and remove the organs before Pc Watkins beat brings him back into the square"

I think it was a case of the prostitutes who knew the areas and knew excatly where they could take the punters.

There are also two other issues. The first is that we do not know the number of people who were walking about at that time of the morning in that location. That is also important in trying to establish if the man Lawende saw was the killer or just one of a number of males walking about at that time of the morning and were accosted by Eddowes,

This factor should also be borne in mind with regards to the descriptions of persons seen talking to Stride. These prostitutes were penniless and desperate for money so they would have propositioned almost every man walking past.

In reality the witness testimony is unreliable and unsafe to rely on