Questioning PC Harveys testimony.

[Fisherman]

"More probable than not" - that is a very useful phrasing that I feel goes very well to describe my take on whether the pair in Church Passage was Kate and her new-found f(r)iend or not.
Of course, if you stood around a while, there would be other comers and goers, some of them in pairs set for business. My distinct feeling, though, is that they would not be around in crowds, and those who were there would not present five feet long women in clothes that matched the ones Kate wore to any more significant extent.
The Church Passage pair being Kate and Jack suits the time frame well, and there are no mismatches as regards the woman, so to me they remain the outstandingly best bid for being that couple.

As for your long list of half phenomenons, I read it with delight, but I don´t understand half of it. Perhaps you left half of it out?

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Hey Caz,

Excellent point bout the staining of the apron.

I agree. Long states that he feared a murder had taken place in the dwellings, this would indicate such items werent common or the apron was heavy with blood.

Monty

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I have very little doubt that the pair was in fact Eddowes and her killer.
we can never be 100% sure but I see it as totally unrealistic that another couple - where the clothing also would match Catherine's - would be on the spot at that particular time.
Firstly - Catherine was found murdered just about five minutes later. This leaves very little time for the murderer and Catherine to go down into Mitre Square and then for her to get killed. It is still a very tight time frame as it is.
Furthermore, Harvey doesn't appear to have seen any other matching couple or woman along his beat on Duke Street during that time. Nor did Watkins see any other people in the square fifteen minutes prior to the discovery of Catherine's body.

To me, common sense dictates that the couple was indeed Catherine and the Ripper. And to be frank, I have never had any particular valid reason to even question it. Considering the time schedule, combined with Lawende's identification of her clothing (whatever we might think about it), it seems very hard to accept that it was another pair not related to the murder and an enormous stretch.

All the best

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Glenn,
My own doubts are because I find the scene rather farcical timewise.Like a time ande motion exercise or a speeded up Charlie Chaplin sequence.
This is how I see it unfolding:

Act 1]1.00am In Berner Street a woman has just been been found dead with her throat cut .It looks suspiciously like another Ripper murder.According to police ,news is spreading of this murder and they have begun looking for the murderer.

Act 2: 1.00am Kate gets out of Bishopsgate Police station and heads over towards Houndsditch.
1.00am Jack leaves Berner Street and heads towards Aldgate.
The two appear to take an extraordinarilly long time-just over half an hour- to reach Church Passage ,though in normal circumstances it would take Kate 7 minutes from BPS and Jack about the same,to reach it from Berner Street.

Act 3:1.35 Church Passage.Kate and Jack are "in a meeting" at the top of Church Passage which leads to Mitre Square.She has her bonnet on her head and is standing quietly and coyly stroking his breast gently.He is wearing a peaked cap like a sailors and is standing quietly-being stroked-while three men ,Lawended being one of them,only 8 to 10 feet away ,take a look towards them.


Act 4:PC Harvey and PC Watkins are on their beats, which include a visit to Church passage by PC Harvey at 1.40 and a visit to the square by Watkins at 1.30 and again 15 minutes later.Neither have seen or heard sight nor sound of Kate or Jack anywhere at all before 1.45 am. when Watkins finds Kate"s body.
PC Harvey did not see the three men either ----and he should have if they were there at 1.35. because he was walking down Duke Street then towards Church Passage.

Act 5 : 1.36 ,Lawended and co move off,- whereupon Kate and Jack hurry speedilly over to the far side of Mitre Square where it is extremely dark,"to do business".But unfortunately for poor Kate, the calm and relaxed looking man she was wooing 2 minutes before turns out to be Jack the Ripper who brutally kills and mutilates her, taking out one of her kidneys as a trophy,all in less than 9 minutes.

Act 6: 1.45 Its all over.The wreckage of Kate"s body is discovered,her bonnet is off now and there are cuts to her face,her clothing removed or disturbed,intestines removed,etc

So, in a time span of less than 9 minutes, all this happened?
Meanwhile what exactly was Kate doing in the 35 minutes after she left the Police Station?---- or the Ripper come to that if you believe ,as I do at the present time,that he also arrived hot foot from the murder of Elizabeth Stride......
Best
Natalie

[Fisherman]

Natalie writes:

"So, in a time span of less than 9 minutes, all this happened?"

Have you tried, Natalie, to put an egg clock at nine minutes, and then sit down in a quiet room, with no disturbances at all around you, waiting for the clock to ring?
It takes ages, I tell you. Nine minutes does not sound much, given the impact of the meeting between Jack and Kate, but it is such a looong time when you really test it this way!

The best,
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Natalie,

So what are you saying? That all involved, including Lawende, were lying?

All the best

[Simon Wood]

Hi Natalie,

Nicely done. I couldn't have put it better myself.

What was Eddowes doing in the 35 minutes between leaving Bishopsgate police station and meeting "Jack"?

Good question.

I think the answer hinges on whether or not you believe she was ever in Bishopsgate police station.

Regards,

Simon

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

What was Eddowes doing in the 35 minutes between leaving Bishopsgate police station and meeting "Jack"?

Good question.

Well, she could have been rambling around half drunk through Houndsditch and Aldgate for all we know.
Who said she must have headed directly to Mitre Square?

So what does that show? Nothing.

All the best

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Simon.I am glad you too see it as an "improbable" scenario.Yes,If she ever was in Bishopsgate Police Station. indeed!

Glenn,
No,I dont think PC Harvey was lying .But he missed Lawende and co completely so someone was wrong about their timing.Also PC Watkins may not have looked carefully enough at 1.30, in the dark into that corner.
But to my mind ,its when you try to see it "playing out" it begins to all look rather unmanageable and unlikely.For Jack to be quite so cool and collected letting himself be seen by Lawende and co in between the killings,especially when he was on the run from one of them.And then-after 1.36,for Jack to have apparently carried it all off, in one mad rush like that ,with pieces of apron flying , body parts being removed etc all in the pitch dark .I know what Fisherman is saying but the whole "play" out from Act 1 to Act 5 above is so difficult a management exercise to carry off surrounded as it is by police-there were even more of them at Aldgate itself apparently,which is just yards from Mitre Square.Anyway its very different from watching an egg come to the boil or whatever!

[Natalie Severn]

Well, she could have been rambling around half drunk through Houndsditch and Aldgate for all we know.
Who said she must have headed directly to Mitre Square?

So what does that show? Nothing.

All the best

Well wouldnt you expect her to have been seen by some of these beady eyed policemen Glenn? There were several more plain clothes police in Aldgate just behind Mitre Square.
Cheers
Natalie

[Simon Wood]

Hi Natalie,

It's all too heavily choreographed for my liking. Also, there was sudden heavy rain on Saturday at 9.05 pm which lasted until after midnight. It was still raining at 1.30 am, which is why Lawende and his pals hung around in the Imperial Club until 1.35 am.

Allegedly, Eddowes was out staggering around the streets from 1.00 am until the discovery of her body at 1.44 am, yet I can't remember reading an account of her clothing being wet.

But this will undoubtedly be explained away by adherents to the status quo.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

Surely, Natalie, you must see that there are so many possibilities to explain why she arrived late in Church Passage that it renders the whole thing moot? What if she walked two blocks after having been let out from the station, only to sit down on some doorstep and give her next move a long hard thought. Maybe she had a splinting headache, and tried to sort out if she was to go home or if she was to try and make some money. The fact that she said that she had a damn fine hiding in the wait for her seems to imply that home and Kelly was her primary aim from the outset. A long, hard thought on that doorstep could have been what made her change her mind - and what delayed her. That, Natalie, os some other of the thousands of possibilities we are dealing with.
Long as the timeframes are so accomodating, long as we have a sighting of a couple where the woman tallied with Eddowes´description, long as the blood clotting underneath her body on that pavement falls within the most reasonable frame and longs as we did have a PC walking through the square before the event and found it empty, me feeling is that there is very little reason to set all these things aside and go for a scenario that has no other things going for it than a hunch that she would have arrived earlier if she made a beeline for Church Passage.

Incidentally, nine minutes will produce three nicely cooked eggs - not just the one ...

The best, Natalie!
Fisherman

[Natalie Severn]

Get off!
No Fisherman,Catherine Eddowes worrying about getting home to her partner is total mythology.Think about it-she didnt bother about John Kelly when she was getting flat on the floor drunk that afternoon-and him without shoes since he had to pawn them to get them both some breakfast that day.
Besides,Kate did not turn right which would have taken her straight home.....much to the surprise of her jailor,Hutt it has to be said. She spun him that story about getting a hiding from "hubby"so he would hurry up and let her get off.Nothing whatsoever to do with hubby......just Kate needing a hair of the dog that bit her----and getting it quick!

Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Natalie,

It's all too heavily choreographed for my liking. Also, there was sudden heavy rain on Saturday at 9.05 pm which lasted until after midnight. It was still raining at 1.30 am, which is why Lawende and his pals hung around in the Imperial Club until 1.35 am.

Allegedly, Eddowes was out staggering around the streets from 1.00 am until the discovery of her body at 1.44 am, yet I can't remember reading an account of her clothing being wet.

But this will undoubtedly be explained away by adherents to the status quo.

Regards,

Simon

...and Simon,you can bet Kate didnt give a damn about getting wet if there was the possibility of a drink of the hard stuff on the horizon.It was quite literally "to die for"
Cheers
Natalie

[perrymason]

........It's all too heavily choreographed for my liking..... .

....Allegedly, Eddowes was out staggering around the streets from 1.00 am until the discovery of her body at 1.44 am, yet I can't remember reading an account of her clothing being wet.

Regards,

Simon

Well put my friend.

Opening scene: Kate enters, her "date" enters, they are canoodling when 3 wiseman walk past.

Cut to crime scene: The killer in seconds has Kate down, cutting her throat,...and in a frenzy begins his real dirty work....

Cue Harvey...the killer slips into the shadows, Harvey doesnt see Kate lying there

Crime scene, Killers POV: The killer gets back to cutting and tearing the apron piece while Harvey walks away, and stuffs it and the organs into his pocket, dashing out the carriageway exit unheard.

Cue Watkins. Cue Morris..on Dancer (Marriott), Donner (Halse) and Blitzen (Outram). Wake Peace.

The story is "timed" so nicely....except for that darn Harvey timing at the Church passage entrance to the square.

On your last point, I believe her clothes were damp, but only on the part facing up....making some believe he also took time for a wee wee.

Cheers all.