Did he always believe Chapman was the ripper?

[Steven Russell]

I know. He was a regular laugh a minute.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Honestly I believe Norma's statement, "Given Chapman’s record of ruthless and criminal behaviour" is based on what we know of his poisonings not on any other behavior we know he got up to.

So, you are saying that Norma meant we know he is ruthless etc because of what he did afterwards, not that he already had been ruthless etc before he came to the UK? That is the ambiguity that I cannot disentangle from her piece.

It's just that J.M. Gordon is convinced he was a criminal before he got to the UK and I can;t work out from Norma's piece whether she is saying that she agrees with JMG.

(Eek -now we are muddling two threads.)

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

Could "I see you've got JtR at last" have been a bit of dry humour on Abbers' part?

Best wishes,
Steve.

No, because he never said it. How could he have? He didn't suspect Chapman until March 1903, five months after Godley arrested him.

Helena

[Steven Russell]

No, because he never said it. How could he have? He didn't suspect Chapman until March 1903, five months after Godley arrested him.

Helena

Does Adam claim that the remark was made at the time of the arrest or is he less specific?

Best wishes,
Steve.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Does Adam claim that the remark was made at the time of the arrest or is he less specific?

Best wishes,
Steve.

Hi Steven

Direct quote from Hargrave L. Adam. He stated in 1930:

‘When Godley arrested Chapman, Abberline said to his confrere, “You’ve got Jack the Ripper at last!”’


Helena X

[Steven Russell]

Thanks, Helena.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Bridewell]

Interrogation

well, maybe GEORGE HUTCHINSON wasn't around anymore to question, maybe he cleared off in late 1889!!!

because if he was JTR, he would definitely have lied about his name and behaved very similar to GC..... I.E he came here and cleared off again, which it definitely looks like JTR did.

but .... there is one massive problem with GH, he needs to stop killing right after MJK, because at least 20 coppers now know what he looks like.

and if GC is JTR, he needs to stop killing too, because GH knows exactly what he looks like...... not maybe..... not close...... EXACTLY !!!!

Hi Malcolm,

In Abberline's report on Hutchinson, dated 13th November 1888, he says, "I have interrogated him this evening and I am of the opinion his statement is true".

I think it highly unlikely that a detective of Abberline's experience would interrogate a witness without taking the elementary precaution of verifying his identity, an omission which would be seen as a schoolboy error by any officer possessed of an ounce of common sense.
I accept that we don't know who Hutchinson was, but that doesn't mean that Abberline didn't.

Regards, Bridewell.

[DVV]

Hi Malcolm,

In Abberline's report on Hutchinson, dated 13th November 1888, he says, "I have interrogated him this evening and I am of the opinion his statement is true".

I think it highly unlikely that a detective of Abberline's experience would interrogate a witness without taking the elementary precaution of verifying his identity, an omission which would be seen as a schoolboy error by any officer possessed of an ounce of common sense.
I accept that we don't know who Hutchinson was, but that doesn't mean that Abberline didn't.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell, but how could he ?
He didn't know either Cross was Lechmere.
Abberline just could knew what the guy told him, and the guy turned out to live in a crowded CLH in which he was, at best, just a number.

It's perhaps, on the contrary, because Abberline belived his story that he was satisfied with his identity, and/or didn't bother looking further.

I agree we don't know who Hutchinson was.

[Beowulf]

Hi Helena

I think it is possible that, as with Abberline's reported comments, Godley may have believed that Klosowski (George Chapman) could have been the Ripper once the man was arrested, tried, and hanged..."

Chris

But as to his believing so till his dieing day, wouldn't his quote to the reporters after his retirement in 1892 have indicated otherwise?

"When in retirement, Abberline was interviewed by a reporter. He refused to make any specific comments about the case saying he had been told “to keep my mouth permanently closed about it”. He did mention that "I know and my superiors know certain facts." The Ripper was not “a butcher, a Jew or a foreigner. You'd have to look for him not at the bottom of London society at the time but a long way up” http://www.wardsbookofdays.com/8january.htm

Chapman/Klosowski was a foreigner, wasn't he? So, isn't that statement showing he ruled him out as JTR?

[Bridewell]

Maybe - or maybe Abberline, who had worked the area for many years, already knew him. Detectives, then as now, use informants, both paid and otherwise. There is no evidence that GH was an existing informant, but he could have been.
I'm not saying he was a snout - just that it can't be discounted.

[Bridewell]

Good Point

But as to his believing so till his dieing day, wouldn't his quote to the reporters after his retirement in 1892 have indicated otherwise?

"When in retirement, Abberline was interviewed by a reporter. He refused to make any specific comments about the case saying he had been told “to keep my mouth permanently closed about it”. He did mention that "I know and my superiors know certain facts." The Ripper was not “a butcher, a Jew or a foreigner. You'd have to look for him not at the bottom of London society at the time but a long way up” http://www.wardsbookofdays.com/8january.htm

Chapman/Klosowski was a foreigner, wasn't he? So, isn't that statement showing he ruled him out as JTR?

Hi Beowulf

Welcome to the forum.

The point is well made, but I think the remark shows, more than anything, that neither Abberline, nor anyone else (despite their protestations to the contrary) had the faintest idea of the identity of JtR.

This looks like standard police bullsh-t by an ex-policeman. (We all do it, I'm afraid!).

Best Wishes, Bridewell.

[HelenaWojtczak]

But as to his believing so till his dieing day, wouldn't his quote to the reporters after his retirement in 1892 have indicated otherwise?

"When in retirement, Abberline was interviewed by a reporter. He refused to make any specific comments about the case saying he had been told “to keep my mouth permanently closed about it”. He did mention that "I know and my superiors know certain facts." The Ripper was not “a butcher, a Jew or a foreigner. You'd have to look for him not at the bottom of London society at the time but a long way up” http://www.wardsbookofdays.com/8january.htm

Chapman/Klosowski was a foreigner, wasn't he? So, isn't that statement showing he ruled him out as JTR?

Hi Beowulf

Abberline did not retire in 1892. He resigned and worked for Pinkerton's Detective Agency till 1904.

The problem with the link and quote you supplied is, it gives no source --what newspaper, what reporter, what date? Being on someone's website doesn't cut any ice. (You should read some of the rubbish I've found on websites regarding Chapman!)

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

I think the remark shows, more than anything, that neither Abberline, nor anyone else (despite their protestations to the contrary) had the faintest idea of the identity of JtR.This looks like standard police bullsh-t by an ex-policeman.

Just want to say, I agree with you 100%!

[Bridewell]

Hurrah!

Just want to say, I agree with you 100%!

Hi Helena,

Agreement on Casebook? Whatever next?

I look forward to the publication of your book, especially as I don't subscribe to the notion that a serial killer can't change his MO when killing for a different motive. I wish you luck with it.

Regards, Bridewell

[Beowulf]

Hi Beowulf

Abberline did not retire in 1892. He resigned and worked for Pinkerton's Detective Agency till 1904.

The problem with the link and quote you supplied is, it gives no source --what newspaper, what reporter, what date? Being on someone's website doesn't cut any ice. (You should read some of the rubbish I've found on websites regarding Chapman!)

Helena

Good point.

I know he worked for the Pinkerton Agency after he retired from the police force.

Here is another source for that quote, actually from the Casebook, although the 'quote' is in different words it is evidently paraphrased in the first article I reference. This one states the source is from The Evening News June 26, 1976

"In an article first published in the Evening News (June 26, 1976) and later reprinted in "The Ripper and the Royals" Nigel Morland recalled visiting Abberline when the Inspector was living in retirement in Dorset. Morland claimed that Abberline told him that the case was shut and that "I've given my word to keep my mouth permanently closed about it." Abberline went on to say that "I know and my superiors know certain facts."and that the Ripper "...wasn't a butcher, Yid or foreign skipper...you'd have to look for him not at the bottom of London society at the time but a long way up."

The bottom of the article quotes this source as Begg, Fido, and Skinner. The Jack the Ripper A-Z.

So, I simply went to my copy of such to verify this fact and found what it says is " Nigel Moreland (1905-86, founder-editor of Criminologist Magazine) was reported in the Evening News of 28 June 1976 as sying that Abberline, toward the end of his life, told him, 'You'd have to look for him (the Ripper) not at the bottom of society, but a long way up.'

No mention of the 'butcher, Yid or foreign skipper' there, at all. On the previous page is in fact, a long discussion about how he did suspect Chapman.

So which is true? Did Abberline really say that to Moreland?

Frustrating, to say the least. I do not wish to contribute to the continuing misinformation of JTR, especially under Abberlines name. The man was in dire earnest of catching him and worked too hard to be misquoted. I would like to see the original context of the Evening News, and even then, it's Nigel's word on Abberline, secondhand information. How credible was Nigel Moreland?

http://www.casebook.org/police_officials/po-abber.html