Leaving one's beat

[John G]

John, he is already in bakers row, both Paul and Lechmere report him as coming out of old Montague street, this formed a junction with Hanbury and Bakers Row.

steve

Okay, excellent spot. But if he was summoned directly by PC Neil, why didn't he just say so? I mean, all he had to say is that he was approached by Cross and Paul and shortly afterwards he was called over by PC Neil. But he doesn't say this.

[Elamarna]

Either Mizen continued knocking up or he didn't. If he continued knocking up, what was he doing in Baker's Row being spotted by Neil? If he didn't then what made him stop?

David

Good questions.

We cannot know if he stopped knocking up or not, he says he did. and of course he is not knocking up every house is he?

He comes out of Old Montague street according to Paul and Neil. we have two options do we not, either he is working clockwise or counter clockwise.
If Clockwise, Bakers row is the next part of his beat.

I fear I am going to have my hand forced here before I am ready.


steve

[Elamarna]

Exactly! And what prompted him to head towards Baker's Row?

John, he is already in Bakers Row, both Paul and Lechmere report him as coming out of old Montague street, this formed a junction with Hanbury and Bakers Row.

steve

[John G]

Either Mizen continued knocking up or he didn't. If he continued knocking up, what was he doing in Baker's Row being spotted by Neil? If he didn't then what made him stop?

Exactly! And what prompted him to head towards Baker's Row?

[David Orsam]

Did Mizen actually go to Buck's Row on his own initiative, or was he fetched? In his own testimony he says that he went to the spot and saw PC Neil. But Neil testimony says "seeing another constable in Baker's-Row, witness dispatched him for the ambulance"....Did they meet half way? Or did Mizen only move when Neil appeared nearby?

Either Mizen continued knocking up or he didn't. If he continued knocking up, what was he doing in Baker's Row being spotted by Neil? If he didn't then what made him stop?

[John G]

John

The Western side of Bakers Row was Mizen's the Eastern side was Neil's..
His route went along the western side to Whitechapel Road.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks, that's clearly very significant. However, it still implies that PC Mizen stopped the important responsibility of knocking people up in order to wander off in the direction of PC Neil's beat. The salient question, of course, is why?

[Elamarna]

Not according to PC Mizen's evidence. Anyway, was Baker's Row within the parameters of his beat? What was he doing even approaching the area?

John

The Western side of Bakers Row was Mizen's the Eastern side was Neil's..
His route went along the western side to Whitechapel Road.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Did Mizen actually go to Buck's Row on his own initiative, or was he fetched? In his own testimony he says that he went to the spot and saw PC Neil. But Neil testimony says "seeing another constable in Baker's-Row, witness dispatched him for the ambulance"....Did they meet half way? Or did Mizen only move when Neil appeared nearby?

Good spot Joshua. There is more to it than that involved, Neil did not as far as we know go far from the body, just across the road to the North side if we take his evidence as accurate.

It is so tempting to jump in now and give my take, but I shall not just yet.


Steve

[John G]

Did Mizen actually go to Buck's Row on his own initiative, or was he fetched? In his own testimony he says that he went to the spot and saw PC Neil. But Neil testimony says "seeing another constable in Baker's-Row, witness dispatched him for the ambulance"....Did they meet half way? Or did Mizen only move when Neil appeared nearby?

Not according to PC Mizen's evidence. Anyway, was Baker's Row within the parameters of his beat? What was he doing even approaching the area? Why did he discontinue his duty of knocking people up in order to wander off to Baker's Row?

[Joshua Rogan]

Did Mizen actually go to Buck's Row on his own initiative, or was he fetched? In his own testimony he says that he went to the spot and saw PC Neil. But Neil testimony says "seeing another constable in Baker's-Row, witness dispatched him for the ambulance"....Did they meet half way? Or did Mizen only move when Neil appeared nearby?

[John G]

Hi all

Just for a moment consider this option.

What if Mizen had not responded, and he did not turn up in Bucks Row.

Ask yourself what would have been his position on Monday after the Lloyds article:
"Pc informed of murder, but did not respond" or similar headlines.

His name would be seriously damaged and the police may have taken action against him to cover their own backs even if he had followed procedure.
As it was he had attended the site and so the press had to hear his testimony before making any comments.

They heard his story, and looked no closer, nor made attacks.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Yes, it's hardly surprising that he didn't face any major recriminations considering how things developed. Nonetheless, that doesn't explain why he thought at the time that the incident was sufficiently serious for him to take the drastic step of abandoning his beat. Consider, for example, David's point that, in respect of Annie Chapman, a fixed point constable refused to attend the incident.

[David Orsam]

He was obliged to act on that report and would have been perfectly justified in leaving his beat to do so.

Well that's exactly what he did. But you were telling me it was his "first duty" to leave his beat. That he should have acted with "more immediacy". That's what the issue was and what I was disputing. It's something you haven't justified.

[David Orsam]

A dead body lying in the gutter is not something which should be left until the relevant beat officer passes on his next circuit.

You're now changing your tune. You are moving from protection of life as a reason for him to leave his beat to a dead body lying in the gutter being reason for him to leave his beat.

Well, firstly, we already know of an example of an officer on fixed-point duty who refused to leave his point to attend to a dead body and he was essentially working to the same rules as a beat officer. In "Capturing Jack the Ripper" by Neil R.A. Bell, the point is made that a fixed-point constable refused to attend the scene where Annie Chapman’s body was lying but instead told his informant, Henry Holland, to go to Commercial Street Police Station to gain help.

Secondly, Mizen DID NOT leave the issue for the relevant beat officer. He went to Bucks Row. The issue between us (which you seem to have forgotten) is whether his doing so should have been a priority over him finishing the knocking up that he was engaged on. In your own words, "Mizen should have acted with more immediacy than he did". I'm saying there was nothing wrong with him completing that knocking up and then going to Bucks Row. It wasn't that urgent a situation.

[David Orsam]

Saying that this didn't "involve protection of life" is being wise after the event.

No it isn't! How can it be? I'm asking how being notified of a drunk woman involved him in protection of life. We know she wasn't drunk so I am in no way being wise after the event. I'm referring to the exact same information which was supposedly reported to him at the time.

You still haven't answered the question. All you've said is "Mizen didn't know what exactly the problem was so yes, 'protection of life' is a factor here". So now you want him to speculate about what might have been happening in Bucks Row, namely that the woman was dying. If there were any issues involving protection of life – and there hadn't been a constable already there (which, of course, is what he said he was told) – then surely Mizen would not have expected the two carmen to have walked casually away, leaving this dying woman alone in the street.

[Elamarna]

Hi all

Just for a moment consider this option.

What if Mizen had not responded, and he did not turn up in Bucks Row.

Ask yourself what would have been his position on Monday after the Lloyds article:
"Pc informed of murder, but did not respond" or similar headlines.

His name would be seriously damaged and the police may have taken action against him to cover their own backs even if he had followed procedure.
As it was he had attended the site and so the press had to hear his testimony before making any comments.

They heard his story, and looked no closer, nor made attacks.

Steve