Leaving one's beat

[Herlock Sholmes]

Never mind old chap. Try using Google Street View to walk the area until you get the hang of the geography

Cheers Joshua,

I might just do that. You would think that after 30 years or so I would have it ingrained on my memory! I need to re-familiarise myself or els keep feeling like a dummy that I can't keep up

[Joshua Rogan]

I'm not sure I follow that. Bethnal Green was in Neil's division.

So it was....my mistake, I always get those two's divisions mixed up.

[David Orsam]

Brilliant, cheers. I had a thought that Neil might have been on his way to fetch the ambulance himself and bumped into Mizen. But he probably wouldn't have been going to a station in another division.

I'm not sure I follow that. Bethnal Green was in Neil's division.

[Joshua Rogan]

It was Bethnal Green police station, I was reminded of the reference once by Dusty, being the report of Inspector Abberline:

MEPO 3/140, f239

19 Sept 88

"... In the meantime PC Mizen had been sent for the ambulance and assistance from Bethnal Green Station ..."

Brilliant, cheers. I had a thought that Neil might have been on his way to fetch the ambulance himself and bumped into Mizen. But he probably wouldn't have been going to a station in another division.

[David Orsam]

Another thought has just occurred to me...

Where did Mizen go in order to fetch the ambulance? I seem to recall it was Bethnal Green police station, but was it there? Or was it the mortuary....which was on Mizen's beat, just off Old Montague St.

It was Bethnal Green police station, I was reminded of the reference once by Dusty, being the report of Inspector Abberline:

MEPO 3/140, f239

19 Sept 88

"... In the meantime PC Mizen had been sent for the ambulance and assistance from Bethnal Green Station ..."

[Joshua Rogan]

Another thought has just occurred to me...

Where did Mizen go in order to fetch the ambulance? I seem to recall it was Bethnal Green police station, but was it there? Or was it the mortuary....which was on Mizen's beat, just off Old Montague St.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Joshua

I already got this map from Steve. I have all the map navigational and directional skills of a toddler however. Things are getting clearer I think.

Never mind old chap. Try using Google Street View to walk the area until you get the hang of the geography.

Incidentally, it doesn't seem to be possible (using Street View) to see Essex Wharf from the Baker's Row end of Durward St. It's not even possible to see the North side of the Board School, so doubt Neil could have seen Mizen until he was well into what was White's Row. Have the buildings on the northern side changed at all, does anyone know?

[Joshua Rogan]

Evening Post 3rd Lechmere'ss testimony

"They went away and met a constable coming out of Montague-street,"

Times 18th Paul's testimony

"on together until they met a policeman at the corner of Old Montagu-street, and told him what they had seen. "

Telegraph 18th - Paul

"The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman."

The Daily News reports Cross as saying;

"No, sir. I saw no one after leaving home, except the man that overtook me, the constable in Baker's row, and the deceased"

[Elamarna]

So you think he might have been on his way to do some more knocking up when, crossing the top of Bucks Row, he saw Neil flashing his lantern at him (or however they communicated)?

The main problem I have with that scenario is this: The only reason for thinking that Mizen ignored what he was told by Paul and Cross is Paul's allegation that Mizen continued knocking up.

BUT

Paul said that after speaking to Mizen he carried on walking up Hanbury Street with Cross on his way to work (for which he was late).

THEREFORE

Paul could not possibly have seen what Mizen did subsequently for more than a few seconds (and Mizen accepted that he did knock up at one property).

THUS

There is really no basis other than speculation to think that Mizen continued knocking up. He could have been on his way to do more, I suppose, but, equally, (or more probably?) he could have been on his way to Bucks Row to take a look to see if there was a woman lying there.

All true, however he does not need to be knocking up, but it cannot be completely ruled out, but there is little time for more than 1 more at most.



Steve

[David Orsam]

Surely it makes little difference, either he is going clockwise or counter. so he either goes East down Hanbury, or he is heading back south down Bakers Row, even if he was definitely coming out of Old Montague it does not tell us the direction he is going, particularly if he has a knock up to do at a set time of 3.45.

So you think he might have been on his way to do some more knocking up when, crossing the top of Bucks Row, he saw Neil flashing his lantern at him (or however they communicated)?

The main problem I have with that scenario is this: The only reason for thinking that Mizen ignored what he was told by Paul and Cross is Paul's allegation that Mizen continued knocking up.

BUT

Paul said that after speaking to Mizen he carried on walking up Hanbury Street with Cross on his way to work (for which he was late).

THEREFORE

Paul could not possibly have seen what Mizen did subsequently for more than a few seconds (and Mizen accepted that he did knock up at one property).

THUS

There is really no basis other than speculation to think that Mizen continued knocking up. He could have been on his way to do more, I suppose, but, equally, (or more probably?) he could have been on his way to Bucks Row to take a look to see if there was a woman lying there.

[Joshua Rogan]

Glad you mentioned that, you will see i have just put the first part of project 2 up and give Richard credit, the View looking towards Bakers Row was done at my request, Richard could not have been more helpful, and have to say never told him what I was looking for.

Good show all round, I shall give that a read.

[Elamarna]

Hmmmn, yes the first quote certainly says that but the other two don't. I'd be looking for a bit of corroboration before accepting it.

I don't think there is any David. I have failed to find a second copy.

However the one of the two from Paul put him at the corner of old Montague, not of Hanbury, which suggests the southern part of the junction of all 3 roads, the 3rd quote while only saying they got to Old Montague can be viewed several ways, one of which would be that he was ther, the other would be he was a few feet away on the Hanbury street side of the junction.

Surely it makes little difference, either he is going clockwise or counter. so he either goes East down Hanbury, or he is heading back south down Bakers Row, even if he was definitely coming out of Old Montague it does not tell us the direction he is going, particularly if he has a knock up to do at a set time of 3.45.


Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does this help?

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1

Thanks Joshua

I already got this map from Steve. I have all the map navigational and directional skills of a toddler however. Things are getting clearer I think.

[David Orsam]

Evening Post 3rd Lechmere'ss testimony

"They went away and met a constable coming out of Montague-street,"

Times 18th Paul's testimony

"on together until they met a policeman at the corner of Old Montagu-street, and told him what they had seen. "

Telegraph 18th - Paul

"The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman."

Hmmmn, yes the first quote certainly says that but the other two don't. I'd be looking for a bit of corroboration before accepting it.

[Elamarna]

Yes, it's very tight from Essex Wharf, but may be possible - check out RichardH's virtual Buck's Row and see what you think.
I think he could easily have run as far as the School, from where he would have been able to see that far.

Glad you mentioned that, you will see i have just put the first part of project 2 up and give Richard credit, the View looking towards Bakers Row was done at my request, Richard could not have been more helpful, and have to say never told him what I was looking for.


steve