Leaving one's beat

[Elamarna]

So you think he might have been on his way to do some more knocking up when, crossing the top of Bucks Row, he saw Neil flashing his lantern at him (or however they communicated)?

The main problem I have with that scenario is this: The only reason for thinking that Mizen ignored what he was told by Paul and Cross is Paul's allegation that Mizen continued knocking up.

BUT

Paul said that after speaking to Mizen he carried on walking up Hanbury Street with Cross on his way to work (for which he was late).

THEREFORE

Paul could not possibly have seen what Mizen did subsequently for more than a few seconds (and Mizen accepted that he did knock up at one property).

THUS

There is really no basis other than speculation to think that Mizen continued knocking up. He could have been on his way to do more, I suppose, but, equally, (or more probably?) he could have been on his way to Bucks Row to take a look to see if there was a woman lying there.

All true, however he does not need to be knocking up, but it cannot be completely ruled out, but there is little time for more than 1 more at most.



Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Evening Post 3rd Lechmere'ss testimony

"They went away and met a constable coming out of Montague-street,"

Times 18th Paul's testimony

"on together until they met a policeman at the corner of Old Montagu-street, and told him what they had seen. "

Telegraph 18th - Paul

"The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman."

The Daily News reports Cross as saying;

"No, sir. I saw no one after leaving home, except the man that overtook me, the constable in Baker's row, and the deceased"

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Joshua

I already got this map from Steve. I have all the map navigational and directional skills of a toddler however. Things are getting clearer I think.

Never mind old chap. Try using Google Street View to walk the area until you get the hang of the geography.

Incidentally, it doesn't seem to be possible (using Street View) to see Essex Wharf from the Baker's Row end of Durward St. It's not even possible to see the North side of the Board School, so doubt Neil could have seen Mizen until he was well into what was White's Row. Have the buildings on the northern side changed at all, does anyone know?

[Joshua Rogan]

Another thought has just occurred to me...

Where did Mizen go in order to fetch the ambulance? I seem to recall it was Bethnal Green police station, but was it there? Or was it the mortuary....which was on Mizen's beat, just off Old Montague St.

[David Orsam]

Another thought has just occurred to me...

Where did Mizen go in order to fetch the ambulance? I seem to recall it was Bethnal Green police station, but was it there? Or was it the mortuary....which was on Mizen's beat, just off Old Montague St.

It was Bethnal Green police station, I was reminded of the reference once by Dusty, being the report of Inspector Abberline:

MEPO 3/140, f239

19 Sept 88

"... In the meantime PC Mizen had been sent for the ambulance and assistance from Bethnal Green Station ..."

[Joshua Rogan]

It was Bethnal Green police station, I was reminded of the reference once by Dusty, being the report of Inspector Abberline:

MEPO 3/140, f239

19 Sept 88

"... In the meantime PC Mizen had been sent for the ambulance and assistance from Bethnal Green Station ..."

Brilliant, cheers. I had a thought that Neil might have been on his way to fetch the ambulance himself and bumped into Mizen. But he probably wouldn't have been going to a station in another division.

[David Orsam]

Brilliant, cheers. I had a thought that Neil might have been on his way to fetch the ambulance himself and bumped into Mizen. But he probably wouldn't have been going to a station in another division.

I'm not sure I follow that. Bethnal Green was in Neil's division.

[Joshua Rogan]

I'm not sure I follow that. Bethnal Green was in Neil's division.

So it was....my mistake, I always get those two's divisions mixed up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Never mind old chap. Try using Google Street View to walk the area until you get the hang of the geography

Cheers Joshua,

I might just do that. You would think that after 30 years or so I would have it ingrained on my memory! I need to re-familiarise myself or els keep feeling like a dummy that I can't keep up

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Nichols' body was found in J Division.

PC Mizen [H Division] fetched an ambulance [handcart] from Bethnal Green [police] station [J Division].

The body was then conveyed to Pavilion Yard [in H Division], just off Old Montague Street.

Why wasn't the body taken to J Division's Bethnal Green mortuary?

Who returned the empty ambulance from Pavilion Yard to Bethnal Green [police] station?

Did H Division not possess its own ambulance?

Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Personally, I prefer the East London Observer, 1st September 1888, version of events—

"Constable Neale [sic] at once called for assistance, and with the help of some scavengers who were cleaning the roads at the time, managed to carry the body to the mortuary, which is situated in the Pavilion Yard close by. Mr. Edmunds, the keeper of the mortuary, was in attendance, and assisted by the officer and the scavengers, undressed the poor creature and placed her in one of the black coffins lying about the mortuary.’

"Accompanied by Mr. Edmunds, the keeper, our reporter visited the temporary resting place of the victim on Friday morning. The first evidence seen of the tragedy on arriving in the yard was a bundle of what were little more than rags, of which the woman had been divested, and which were lying on the flagstones just outside the mortuary. They consisted of a dull red cloak already mentioned, together with a dark bodice and brown skirt, a check flannel petticoat which bore the mark of the Lambeth Workhouse, a pair of dark stockings, and an old pair of dilapidated-looking spring-side boots, together with the little and sadly battered black straw bonnet, minus either ribbons or trimmings.

"Contrary to anticipation, beyond the flannel petticoat, and with the exception of a few bloodstains on the cloak, the other clothing was scarcely marked. The petticoat, however, was completely saturated with blood, and altogether presented a sickening spectacle."

Regards,

Simon

[harry]

Even if Cross or Paul stated he(Mizen) was wanted in Bucks Row,surely Mizen would have asked them if they had a reason why, and they would have told him(Mizen)about a woman lying there,and a suspicion she might be dead.That is what they communicated to him.No mention by them(Cross/Paul)of another officer present in Buck's Row. To me it is a question of how,"You are wanted in Bucks Row", was expressed by Cross/Paul,and interpreted by Mizen.

[drstrange169]

>>... it doesn't seem to be possible (using Street View) to see Essex Wharf from the Baker's Row end of Durward St. It's not even possible to see the North side of the Board School, so doubt Neil could have seen Mizen until he was well into what was White's Row. Have the buildings on the northern side changed at all, does anyone know?<<

If the old ordinance survey maps are correct, it was possible to see down to Bakers Row from Bucks, but it was only a small line of sight. If you hunt through the archives about 5 years, you'll find the map I posted illustrating this.

Neil does say he moved around, so it's more than likely he moved to an even better position with regards to Baker's Row.

After all, he said he signalled Mizen. What would be the point of him signalling from a position he knew Mizen would not see him?

My guess is, he saw Mizen's Bullseye and signalled. Of course, we know Mizen was probably heading that way anyway, but Niel didn't know that.

[drstrange169]

>> ... even if he was definitely coming out of Old Montague it does not tell us the direction he is going, particularly if he has a knock up to do at a set time of 3.45.<<

Mizen's beat is in Neil's (Bell not PC )book. I won't post it here, in case Neil objects, but I do strongly reccommend buying the book.

I don't have my notes here (I'm at work) but I vaguely remember there were no private houses on the corner. But I could be wrong!

[drstrange169]

Found it!

Here's the Goad maps extracts. Doesn't prove anything, but opens some interesting questions about where Mizen went to "knock up". The nearset "D" for dwellings are down Hanbury and down Montague. There are some dwellings on the opposite side of Baker's Row, but that was Neil's beat (?) in "J" division.