Leaving one's beat

[Joshua Rogan]

I wish that we could all be in a room with a map! I'm hopeless at directions so I'm struggling with this. I'm reluctant to ask because they will probably be stupid questions!

I know. It's never stopped you before, I can hear you say

Does this help?

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.877556030122356&lat=51.5193&lon=-0.0621&layers=163&b=1

[Elamarna]

Okay, excellent spot. But if he was summoned directly by PC Neil, why didn't he just say so? I mean, all he had to say is that he was approached by Cross and Paul and shortly afterwards he was called over by PC Neil. But he doesn't say this.

However he does not appear to mention Cross and Paul to Neil at all.
That is my new take on what happened. I would really prefer to leave it like this for now.

steve

[John G]

Does this help?

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1

I've just looked at the map in CSI Whitechapel, 2012. Bakers Row leads onto White's Row. There is then a significant bend in the road before White's Row becomes Buck's Row.

[Elamarna]

Sorry Steve, forget I said anything!

Not a problem Joshua, just not actually ready yet. you have part of it, but not all.

steve

[John G]

However he does not appear to mention Cross and Paul to Neil at all.
That is my new take on what happened. I would really prefer to leave it like this for now.

steve

Okay, thanks Steve. I look forward to reading your take on things.

[Joshua Rogan]

That's certainly true today (and I assume it was the same then) but Neil wasn't necessarily rooted to the spot. In fact, he says he went and rang the bell of Essex Wharf and inquired if any disturbance had been heard. He only needed to move a small distance and he would, I think, have had a direct sight line up to Baker's Row (i.e. to see an officer with a lamp).

Yes, it's very tight from Essex Wharf, but may be possible - check out RichardH's virtual Buck's Row and see what you think.
I think he could easily have run as far as the School, from where he would have been able to see that far.

[Elamarna]

My understanding is that Cross and Paul found Mizen at the point where Hanbury St, Old Montague St and Baker's Row all converge, so he was practically in Baker's Row. His beat might have taken him in that direction anyway. Conversely, I don't think it's possible to see as far as Baker's Row from the murder scene due to the slight curve of the road.

yes that was an issue, the line of sight, however I have an answer to that.


steve

[Elamarna]

Do they actually say he "came out of" Old Montague Street though Steve?

Evening Post 3rd Lechmere'ss testimony

"They went away and met a constable coming out of Montague-street,"

Times 18th Paul's testimony

"on together until they met a policeman at the corner of Old Montagu-street, and told him what they had seen. "

Telegraph 18th - Paul

"The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman."


steve

[Elamarna]

That's certainly true today (and I assume it was the same then) but Neil wasn't necessarily rooted to the spot. In fact, he says he went and rang the bell of Essex Wharf and inquired if any disturbance had been heard. He only needed to move a small distance and he would, I think, have had a direct sight line up to Baker's Row (i.e. to see an officer with a lamp).

very true


Steve

[Elamarna]

Yes, it's very tight from Essex Wharf, but may be possible - check out RichardH's virtual Buck's Row and see what you think.
I think he could easily have run as far as the School, from where he would have been able to see that far.

Glad you mentioned that, you will see i have just put the first part of project 2 up and give Richard credit, the View looking towards Bakers Row was done at my request, Richard could not have been more helpful, and have to say never told him what I was looking for.


steve

[David Orsam]

Evening Post 3rd Lechmere'ss testimony

"They went away and met a constable coming out of Montague-street,"

Times 18th Paul's testimony

"on together until they met a policeman at the corner of Old Montagu-street, and told him what they had seen. "

Telegraph 18th - Paul

"The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman."

Hmmmn, yes the first quote certainly says that but the other two don't. I'd be looking for a bit of corroboration before accepting it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does this help?

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1

Thanks Joshua

I already got this map from Steve. I have all the map navigational and directional skills of a toddler however. Things are getting clearer I think.

[Elamarna]

Hmmmn, yes the first quote certainly says that but the other two don't. I'd be looking for a bit of corroboration before accepting it.

I don't think there is any David. I have failed to find a second copy.

However the one of the two from Paul put him at the corner of old Montague, not of Hanbury, which suggests the southern part of the junction of all 3 roads, the 3rd quote while only saying they got to Old Montague can be viewed several ways, one of which would be that he was ther, the other would be he was a few feet away on the Hanbury street side of the junction.

Surely it makes little difference, either he is going clockwise or counter. so he either goes East down Hanbury, or he is heading back south down Bakers Row, even if he was definitely coming out of Old Montague it does not tell us the direction he is going, particularly if he has a knock up to do at a set time of 3.45.


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Glad you mentioned that, you will see i have just put the first part of project 2 up and give Richard credit, the View looking towards Bakers Row was done at my request, Richard could not have been more helpful, and have to say never told him what I was looking for.

Good show all round, I shall give that a read.

[David Orsam]

Surely it makes little difference, either he is going clockwise or counter. so he either goes East down Hanbury, or he is heading back south down Bakers Row, even if he was definitely coming out of Old Montague it does not tell us the direction he is going, particularly if he has a knock up to do at a set time of 3.45.

So you think he might have been on his way to do some more knocking up when, crossing the top of Bucks Row, he saw Neil flashing his lantern at him (or however they communicated)?

The main problem I have with that scenario is this: The only reason for thinking that Mizen ignored what he was told by Paul and Cross is Paul's allegation that Mizen continued knocking up.

BUT

Paul said that after speaking to Mizen he carried on walking up Hanbury Street with Cross on his way to work (for which he was late).

THEREFORE

Paul could not possibly have seen what Mizen did subsequently for more than a few seconds (and Mizen accepted that he did knock up at one property).

THUS

There is really no basis other than speculation to think that Mizen continued knocking up. He could have been on his way to do more, I suppose, but, equally, (or more probably?) he could have been on his way to Bucks Row to take a look to see if there was a woman lying there.