Leaving one's beat

[Herlock Sholmes]

lech may have said something like-"your needed in Bucks row..."

Hi Abby,

I've always thought this likely. He could have simply meant 'you're presence is required....'

[Herlock Sholmes]

Very good questions Herlock. The very same I asked myself.
The answer to which unlocks the maze of the "Scam".



Steve

Thanks Steve. I look forward to the results of your research surrounding 'the Scam.'

[John G]

Thanks Steve. I look forward to the results of your research surrounding 'the Scam.'

So am I! I'm sure it will be both thorough and exceptionally well researched.

[Herlock Sholmes]

But does PC Mizen say that he knew there was a body in Bucks Row? He says that he was simply told he was wanted by a policemen.

Hi John

He said that he was told that a woman was lying in Bucks Row but that she was drunk and not dead. Might he not have thought ' well I've got my knocking up duties to perform surely this 'other policeman' can deal with a drunken women?

[John G]

Hi John

He said that he was told that a woman was lying in Bucks Row but that she was drunk and not dead. Might he not have thought ' well I've got my knocking up duties to perform surely this 'other policeman' can deal with a drunken women?

Hi Herlock,

Thanks. Surely a woman passed out drunk wouldn't have been a sufficient reason to leave his beat? I mean, it was hardly an emergency; rather a pretty flimsy pretext. Could that explain why he said he was told he was wanted by another officer who, under the regulations, could only summon his assitance in an emergency?

[Abby Normal]

Dead or drunk... lying in the street...etc.

he probably thought just another drunk, but better go check it out just to be sure. That's what I would have thought.

I mean seriously-whats the chance he would have thought that she was dead in any case? How common were dead women in the street?

[John G]

Dead or drunk... lying in the street...etc.

he probably thought just another drunk, but better go check it out just to be sure. That's what I would have thought.

I mean seriously-whats the chance he would have thought that she was dead in any case? How common were dead women in the street?

But surely that's part of the problem, Abby . If he abandoned his beat to attend a mere drunk, obviously not an emergency, which is about the only justification he had, he could have been facing misconduct charges.

[Joshua Rogan]

But surely that's part of the problem, Abby . If he abandoned his beat to attend a mere drunk, obviously not an emergency, which is about the only justification he had, he could have been facing misconduct charges.

What if the drunk was lying in a position where her stiff collar was restricting her breathing? He may have arrived in time to save her life.

[John G]

What if the drunk was lying in a position where her stiff collar was restricting her breathing? He may have arrived in time to save her life.

But that could theoretically apply to anyone who was found insensibly drunk in the street. If he kept disappearing from his beat on such flimsy/dubious pretexts I doubt he would remain in service long enough to collect his pension!

[Elamarna]

Hi all

Just for a moment consider this option.

What if Mizen had not responded, and he did not turn up in Bucks Row.

Ask yourself what would have been his position on Monday after the Lloyds article:
"Pc informed of murder, but did not respond" or similar headlines.

His name would be seriously damaged and the police may have taken action against him to cover their own backs even if he had followed procedure.
As it was he had attended the site and so the press had to hear his testimony before making any comments.

They heard his story, and looked no closer, nor made attacks.

Steve

[David Orsam]

Saying that this didn't "involve protection of life" is being wise after the event.

No it isn't! How can it be? I'm asking how being notified of a drunk woman involved him in protection of life. We know she wasn't drunk so I am in no way being wise after the event. I'm referring to the exact same information which was supposedly reported to him at the time.

You still haven't answered the question. All you've said is "Mizen didn't know what exactly the problem was so yes, 'protection of life' is a factor here". So now you want him to speculate about what might have been happening in Bucks Row, namely that the woman was dying. If there were any issues involving protection of life – and there hadn't been a constable already there (which, of course, is what he said he was told) – then surely Mizen would not have expected the two carmen to have walked casually away, leaving this dying woman alone in the street.

[David Orsam]

A dead body lying in the gutter is not something which should be left until the relevant beat officer passes on his next circuit.

You're now changing your tune. You are moving from protection of life as a reason for him to leave his beat to a dead body lying in the gutter being reason for him to leave his beat.

Well, firstly, we already know of an example of an officer on fixed-point duty who refused to leave his point to attend to a dead body and he was essentially working to the same rules as a beat officer. In "Capturing Jack the Ripper" by Neil R.A. Bell, the point is made that a fixed-point constable refused to attend the scene where Annie Chapman’s body was lying but instead told his informant, Henry Holland, to go to Commercial Street Police Station to gain help.

Secondly, Mizen DID NOT leave the issue for the relevant beat officer. He went to Bucks Row. The issue between us (which you seem to have forgotten) is whether his doing so should have been a priority over him finishing the knocking up that he was engaged on. In your own words, "Mizen should have acted with more immediacy than he did". I'm saying there was nothing wrong with him completing that knocking up and then going to Bucks Row. It wasn't that urgent a situation.

[David Orsam]

He was obliged to act on that report and would have been perfectly justified in leaving his beat to do so.

Well that's exactly what he did. But you were telling me it was his "first duty" to leave his beat. That he should have acted with "more immediacy". That's what the issue was and what I was disputing. It's something you haven't justified.

[John G]

Hi all

Just for a moment consider this option.

What if Mizen had not responded, and he did not turn up in Bucks Row.

Ask yourself what would have been his position on Monday after the Lloyds article:
"Pc informed of murder, but did not respond" or similar headlines.

His name would be seriously damaged and the police may have taken action against him to cover their own backs even if he had followed procedure.
As it was he had attended the site and so the press had to hear his testimony before making any comments.

They heard his story, and looked no closer, nor made attacks.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Yes, it's hardly surprising that he didn't face any major recriminations considering how things developed. Nonetheless, that doesn't explain why he thought at the time that the incident was sufficiently serious for him to take the drastic step of abandoning his beat. Consider, for example, David's point that, in respect of Annie Chapman, a fixed point constable refused to attend the incident.

[Joshua Rogan]

Did Mizen actually go to Buck's Row on his own initiative, or was he fetched? In his own testimony he says that he went to the spot and saw PC Neil. But Neil testimony says "seeing another constable in Baker's-Row, witness dispatched him for the ambulance"....Did they meet half way? Or did Mizen only move when Neil appeared nearby?