Leaving one's beat

[Monty]

What a clear cut world you live in Simon.

Monty

[David Orsam]

He would be helping himself by such an invention because he would be creating a scenario wherein a "J" Division officer was already present and dealing with the problem.

But he wasn't simply saying that "an officer was already present". The quote Mizen attributed to Cross (according to the press reports) was: "You are wanted in Buck’s row by a policeman. A woman is lying there". If the quote was "You had better go to Buck's Row. There is a policeman there, and a woman is lying there" what you say would make sense. But why claim he had been summoned to Bucks Row if he wasn't going to immediately answer that summons?

If, in fact, Lechmere & Paul simply told him of a woman either dead or drunk on Bucks Row (as was claimed) he would have failed in the first duty of a police officer - the protection of life.

How would attending to a drunk woman in Bucks Row involve the protection of life? Or a dead woman for that matter!

[Pierre]

But he wasn't simply saying that "an officer was already present". The quote Mizen attributed to Cross (according to the press reports) was: "You are wanted in Buck’s row by a policeman. A woman is lying there". If the quote was "You had better go to Buck's Row. There is a policeman there, and a woman is lying there" what you say would make sense. But why claim he had been summoned to Bucks Row if he wasn't going to immediately answer that summons?

How would attending to a drunk woman in Bucks Row involve the protection of life? Or a dead woman for that matter!

I guess we may soon have the answers to these questions from Steve.

Pierre

[Sam Flynn]

How would attending to a drunk woman in Bucks Row involve the protection of life? Or a dead woman for that matter!

A drunk woman sparked out on the pavement might need help, and a dead body would need to be officially dealt with. He could hardly have ignored the situation, especially given that two men (Cross & Paul) had gone out of their way to find a police officer. Clearly something was up.

[David Orsam]

A drunk woman sparked out on the pavement might need help, and a dead body would need to be officially dealt with. He could hardly have ignored the situation, especially given that two men (Cross & Paul) had gone out of their way to find a police officer. Clearly something was up.

Yes and he didn't ignore the situation. He went round to Bucks Row. The question was whether it was his "first duty".

[Sam Flynn]

Yes and he didn't ignore the situation. He went round to Bucks Row. The question was whether it was his "first duty".

The question to which I responded was:

How would attending to a drunk woman in Bucks Row involve the protection of life? Or a dead woman for that matter!

[Flower and Dean]

I agree with people who have said leaving one's beat would have been allowed in case of emergency. That sounds like part of the purpose, not just to watch for trouble but to be easy to find by people to intervene in emergencies nearby.

Can someone point me to the source(s) for Mizen continuing knocking up even after he was called? I can't find that, only his claims that he didn't continue doing that.

[David Orsam]

The question to which I responded was:

Yes, I know, and my question was in response to this statement:

"If, in fact, Lechmere & Paul simply told him of a woman either dead or drunk on Bucks Row (as was claimed) he would have failed in the first duty of a police officer - the protection of life."

And your answer didn't actually meet the point. You said "A drunk woman sparked out on the pavement might need help". That's different from the protection of life.

You also said a dead body would need to be officially dealt with. That, again, is different from the protection of life.

So perhaps I should repeat the question:

How would attending to a drunk woman in Bucks Row involve the protection of life? Or a dead woman for that matter!

[David Orsam]

I agree with people who have said leaving one's beat would have been allowed in case of emergency. That sounds like part of the purpose, not just to watch for trouble but to be easy to find by people to intervene in emergencies nearby.

Can someone point me to the source(s) for Mizen continuing knocking up even after he was called? I can't find that, only his claims that he didn't continue doing that.

Here's what I posted in another thread:

As for what Mizen did do, Reporter G seems to carry the fullest account of his evidence on this point, namely: "In reply to a juryman, witness said that when the carman spoke to him he was engaged in knocking people up, and he finished knocking people up at the one place where he was at the time, giving two or three knocks, and then went directly to Buck’s-row, not wanting to knock up anyone else".

Reporter B corroborates this: "The witness was at the time in the act of knocking a man up….It is not true that before he went to Buck’s-row, witness continued “knocking people up”. He went there immediately".

Reporter C also carries a shorter version of this: "A juryman: Did you continue knocking people up after Cross told you were wanted? Witness – No. I only finished knocking up one person".

Reporter G is Daily Chronicle, B is the Star and C is the Daily News.

In short, Mizen admitted that he did continue to knock up after speaking to Paul and Cross but only at one residence.
__________________

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, I know, and my question was in response to this statement:

David, you must have picked more nits than a mangy chimpanzee. I'm not going to indulge you, sorry.

[David Orsam]

David, you must have picked more nits than a mangy chimpanzee. I'm not going to indulge you, sorry.

I never wanted to be "indulged". I asked a question of Bridewell back in 2014. This thread had died. Suddenly in 2017 you claimed to have answered my question but hadn't done so. I simply pointed out that you hadn't done so. I'm not the one nitpicking.

[Wickerman]

If Cross/Paul said to Mizen, 'you are wanted in Bucks Row, a woman is lying either dead or drunk in the street', Constable Mizen may have thought they meant another constable wanted help. Whereas the two witnesses only meant his attention was wanted.
That being the case then Mizen may not have felt an urgency to get to Bucks Row, if another constable was already on the scene.

It all depends on what Mizen believed he was being told.

I did read somewhere that beat constables were often paid to knock people up for work, it wasn't done for free.

[Joshua Rogan]

Can someone point me to the source(s) for Mizen continuing knocking up even after he was called? I can't find that, only his claims that he didn't continue doing that.

The source is chiefly the 'remarkable statement' given by Robert Paul to Lloyds Weekly 2nd Sept., in which he says that after he and Cross found the body;

"I was obliged to be punctual at my work, so I went on and told the other man I would send the first policeman I saw. I saw one in Church-row, just at the top of Buck's-row, who was going round calling people up, and I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not. He continued calling the people up, which I thought was a great shame, after I had told him the woman was dead."

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Cross/Paul said to Mizen, 'you are wanted in Bucks Row, a woman is lying either dead or drunk in the street', Constable Mizen may have thought they meant another constable wanted help. Whereas the two witnesses only meant his attention was wanted.
That being the case then Mizen may not have felt an urgency to get to Bucks Row, if another constable was already on the scene.

It all depends on what Mizen believed he was being told.

I did read somewhere that beat constables were often paid to knock people up for work, it wasn't done for free.

Hi Jon,

I must admit that I've always been under the impression that 'knocking up' wasn't legit and that police officers were paid for it?

Ive also suspected, though we have no way of knowing for sure, that if CL and Paul had said 'you're wanted in Bucks Row,' they could simply have meant 'your presence is required in Bucks Row.' Then Mizen on arriving there saw PC Neil then got a bit mixed up and thought that they'd said 'you're wanted by a Constable' when making his statement. It has to be a possibility at least.

[harry]

Any law enforcement officer on a beat had a responsibility to the citizens on his beat,in addition to his responsibilities as dictated by the police force.It was one reason police wore uniforms,to be easily recognisable as such,so that a member of the public,if there was a problem,could get help.In this case Mizen was responding to members of the public,not to his superiors.His decision to leave his beat therefor,in my opinion,means he (Mizen)believed he would not be in breach of duties if he responded by going to Buck Row.The only fault ,if there is one,is did Mizen delay longer than he should have.