Time Keeping

[fraxinus]

Were the police issued with a time piece and how accurate would these be?.
Would they be set by the local Police Station clock?
The reason I ask is the discrepancies in times in the Nichols murder.

[fraxinus]

Time Keeping

It is indeed sad that a young Cadet should not have any replies to his question.
Surely it is the duty of all those higher ranks to help and aid him in his new found position.

[John Wheat]

To Fraxinus

I assume the police were issued with a time piece and I also assume they would be set by the local Police Station clock. However I don't know for sure. I wish I knew the answers but I don't.

Cheers John

[Monty]

Hey,

No, Constables were not issued with time pieces, however many pucrhased their own.

Constables without pocket watches learned to use public clocks, churches, post offices and such like, and always noted them.

Times given in reports are always an approximation, to the nearest 5 minutes, unless precise, like 2.42 am for example.

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fraxinus,

Monty is absolutely right about the majority of policemen relying upon public clocks. PC Harvey [Eddowes murder]: "At twenty-eight minutes past one o'clock I passed the post-office clock."

However, with the Nichols murder we find ourselves on the horns of a dilemma.

According to official testimony, taking a snapshot of 3.45 am we find: Robert Paul walking up Buck’s Row on his way to work; Charles Cross standing by Polly’s body; PC Neil discovering Polly’s body; PC Thain being signalled by PC Neil; and PC Mizen encountering Cross and Paul 300 yards away at the corner of Bakers Row and Old Montague Street.

Clearly these events could not all have happened at the same time.

But with not a pocket watch between them, and given the inaccuracy of public clocks, they all agreed that these discrete events took place at exactly 3.45 am, which made it impossible for anyone to subsequently determine the true sequence of events.

Good luck with this conundrum.

Regards,

Simon

[Graham]

"If you want to know the time, ask a policeman.
"The proper Greenwich time, ask a policeman.
"Every member of the Force has a watch and chain, of course!
"So if you want to know the time, ask a policeman".

Old and popular music-hall song, published 1889.

Graham

[fraxinus]

Thanks for the replies, while they may differ, it is now up to me to find out
more on police timekeeping before coming to any conclusions regarding the Nichols murder. P.C Mizen says it was 0415 when approached by Cross and Paul, Cross says he was in work by 0400. Paul I believe was the true timekeeper. Leaving house at 0345 for a 15 minute walk to work. States took no more than 4 mins to find P.C Mizen, and also be out of sight of P.C Neil who doesn't state a time, but only works it out from his last beat. Anyway I do think Cross must be the prime suspect here. Remember they all stated that the streets were empty at the time.
from a young cadet, who is only learning the ropes.

[Sluggo]

Hi Fraxinus,
I realize this is an old post. I see that you state that Mizan stated that he was informed by Paul and Cross of the body in Buck's Row at 4:15a. Where did you get this information?

Sluggo

[harry]

Fraxinus,
I would not be too sure of believing Paul to be accurate.Although it may have taken 15 minutes to reach his works,most workers would arrive early.His place of work could also have a different meaning.It may not have meant the entrance gate.For example I once was employed at a large concern.My place of work was some minutes walk inside the premises.It was there I had to be at start time.

[Bridewell]

"If you want to know the time, ask a policeman.
"The proper Greenwich time, ask a policeman.
"Every member of the Force has a watch and chain, of course!
"So if you want to know the time, ask a policeman".

Old and popular music-hall song, published 1889.

Graham

I read somewhere that this was sarcastic and reflected a claim that policemen were in the habit of relieving drunken gentlemen of their pocket watches.

[Bridewell]

Thanks for the replies, while they may differ, it is now up to me to find out more on police timekeeping before coming to any conclusions regarding the Nichols murder.

Hi Fraxinus.

I'm not sure if you're still visiting the boards but, if you are, you can make a pretty safe assumption that Monty is correct on this, he being the acknowledged authority here on 19th century police practise. To the best of my knowledge UK police officers have never been issued with watches, the expectation being that each provides his or her own.

[Bridewell]

Further to the above, most officers, in my experience time a PBE (pocket book entry) to the nearest 5 minutes. That's certainly what I did. If it was really busy I would enter just time and place, as a reminder, and expand on the detail later when the opportunity presented itself.

The Nichols murder times are probably something like:

3.43am (earlier, of course, if you support the argument that he was the killer!) Cross @ Lechmere finds the body.

3.44am He waylays Paul.

3.44am & 30 seconds Cross/Lechmere & Paul go in search of a policeman.

3.46am They run into Mizen. Neill 'finds' the body.

None of the time estimates needs to be more than a couple of minutes out.

[GUT]

I read somewhere that this was sarcastic and reflected a claim that policemen were in the habit of relieving drunken gentlemen of their pocket watches.

Or even a shot at the authorities for NOT providing the police with proper means of keeping synchronised time.

Well that's what I was told it was about.