Suppose a City PC did see something near Mitre Square

[Tecs]

Dear all,

Don Rumbelow speculated that, and bear in mind he was an ex city PC himself, Watkins was in fact drinking tea with the ex PC security guard at K+T's. This was almost confirmed when the Stephen White story came to light in which, if I remember correctly, it says that a PC came out of the room he had been in and discovered the body. Or words to that effect, haven't got my stuff with me!

If true, we can see why the Police may need to keep this info quiet. If the public found out that the Ripper was given a helping hand by beat officers scrimping on their rounds, there would be uproar. Presumably, most PC's had done so at one time or another so within the force Watkins may have been forgiven.

On the other hand, unless I've missed something if you take away Swanson's reference to the witness being Jewish, there is nothing to believe that it could be Watkins is there?

It would be easy for the Police to keep quiet that he had actually seen the killer. Only a handful need know and a strictly verbal basis would mean no written records?

regards,

[lynn cates]

simplest explanation

Hello Damaso.

"The more police memoirs I read, the less I know about this case."

Quite. And what is the simplest explanation for this?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Sorry,

Why would there be a need to keep it quiet?

Monty

[Wickerman]

Jon, what's your opinion of: "the court near the square"? Does this make sense in the context of Watkins's beat?

Hi FM.

Hard to say, isn't it.

The wide entrance between Mitre Street and Mitre Sq. 'could' loosely be described as a court, and Watkins would have entered through there. Also possible is that the writer was referring to St. James Place, alternately, it may be just an inaccurate choice of words by the reporter.

[Monty]

Hi FM.

Hard to say, isn't it.

The wide entrance between Mitre Street and Mitre Sq. 'could' loosely be described as a court, and Watkins would have entered through there. Also possible is that the writer was referring to St. James Place, alternately, it may be just an inaccurate choice of words by the reporter.

Sugar Bakers Yard

Monty

[Bridewell]

The Court Near The Square

Jon, what's your opinion of: "the court near the square"? Does this make sense in the context of Watkins's beat?

The following is from the Casebook 'Mitre Square' wiki entry:

"The square became known as Duke's Place by 1676[1]and was also the site of St. James' church. South of this was the Mitre Tavern and Mitre Court (later Mitre Street) and to the north, a narrow passage known as 'Dark Entry' (later Church Passage). The earliest appearence of the name Mitre Square seems to be in 1830[2] . St James's church was demolished in 1874."

The reference to "the court near the square" could presumably be a reference to Mitre Street? That would fit with the approach of Watkin.

[Bridewell]

Don Rumbelow speculated that, and bear in mind he was an ex city PC himself, Watkins was in fact drinking tea with the ex PC security guard at K+T's.

And there's a saying within the service: "A good policeman never gets wet".

[Bridewell]

"City PC"

There is an earlier thread on this topic which may be of interest:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6729

[crberger]

- "..a police-constable met a man of Jewish appearance hurrying out of the court."
The Morning Leader, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square,"
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court"
Seattle Daily Times, 4 Feb. 1905

What if this is a man of foreign origins, but not Jewish and well-known for other reasons.
I am thinking about a new conspiracy: it involves well-dressed foreigners and something, something, maybe Czarist and Prussian diplomats.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The following is from the Casebook 'Mitre Square' wiki entry:

"The square became known as Duke's Place by 1676[1]and was also the site of St. James' church. South of this was the Mitre Tavern and Mitre Court (later Mitre Street) and to the north, a narrow passage known as 'Dark Entry' (later Church Passage). The earliest appearence of the name Mitre Square seems to be in 1830[2] . St James's church was demolished in 1874."

The reference to "the court near the square" could presumably be a reference to Mitre Street? That would fit with the approach of Watkin.

Was Mitre Street a court to all intents and purposes? I always thought of a court as an arched passageway, but looking it up on the internet it appears it's another term for a cul-de-sac.

[Jonathan H]

This is pertinent I think: Sims--1907:

'One man only, a policeman, saw him leaving the place in which he had just accomplished a fiendish deed, but failed, owing to the darkness, to get a good view of him. A little later the policeman stumbled over the lifeless body of the victim.'

...

'The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.'


I would suggest that this is the origin of much of the later claims of police seeing Jack, or seeing him as he left a victim, or of a witness failing to affirm--in several different accounts.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jonathan.

Sims wrote that 2 years after Sagar.

[Jonathan H]

Griffiths had this bit from the alternate version of Mac's 'memo' in 1898.

But I don't mean Sagar.

I mean Anderson, Swanson, and the tales concocted about White.

[Damaso Marte]

Watkins approached the square from the north, right? I guess if these accounts are accurate, we know how the killer got to Ghoulston street.

[Stewart P Evans]

'City PC Story'

This topic has always been good for an endless stream of fanciful speculation.

It seems that the simplest answers are always the hardest to accept. And we have seen this discussion revived many times over the years. But there are the usual caveats to bear in mind.

1. From the official records it is obvious that there was no unknown 'City PC' witness on the night of the Mitre Square murder.

2. The Stephen White press story (as to seeing a suspect leave a murder scene) is almost certainly apocryphal.

3. This is a careless recycling of various second-hand stories over the years with no official record to support it.