Suppose a City PC did see something near Mitre Square

[Damaso Marte]

Suppose the reference to "a city PC near Mitre Square" was not in fact a reference to Lawende, but that, say, an actual city PC saw somebody leaving Mitre Square in a suspicious manner shortly before the body was discovered. Obviously, no record of such a sighting exists in the materials we're familiar with.

How in line with 1888 standards and norms for police work would it have been for nothing to have been made public, not revealed at the inquest, etc? I know that today, police forces frequently do not reveal the full details of murders, in part to determine the veracity of any confessions that might be made.

[Wickerman]

Recollections of Det. Insp. Robert Sagar, City of London Police.

As you know, the perpetrator of these outrages was never brought to justice, but I believe he came the nearest to being captured after the murder of the woman Kelly in Mitre-square. A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square, and a few moments after fell over the body. He blew his whistle, and other officers running up, they set off in pursuit of the man who had just left. The officers were wearing indiarubber boots, and the retreating footsteps of a man could be clearly heard. The sounds were followed to King's-block in the model dwellings in Stoney-lane, but we did not see the man again that night.
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905.

[Stephen Thomas]

Recollections of Det. Insp. Robert Sagar, City of London Police.
do
As you know, the perpetrator of these outrages was never brought to justice, but I believe he came the nearest to being captured after the murder of the woman Kelly in Mitre-square. A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square, and a few moments after fell over the body. He blew his whistle, and other officers running up, they set off in pursuit of the man who had just left. The officers were wearing indiarubber boots, and the retreating footsteps of a man could be clearly heard. The sounds were followed to King's-block in the model dwellings in Stoney-lane, but we did not see the man again that night.
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905.

Thanks Jon. I don't remember seeing that before.

This is almost certainly the sighting by MM's City PC and interestingly the suspect is not only of Jewish appearance but also 'well known' to the police (ie easily catchable).

[curious]

Recollections of Det. Insp. Robert Sagar, City of London Police.

As you know, the perpetrator of these outrages was never brought to justice, but I believe he came the nearest to being captured after the murder of the woman Kelly in Mitre-square. A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square, and a few moments after fell over the body. He blew his whistle, and other officers running up, they set off in pursuit of the man who had just left. The officers were wearing indiarubber boots, and the retreating footsteps of a man could be clearly heard. The sounds were followed to King's-block in the model dwellings in Stoney-lane, but we did not see the man again that night.
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905.

Does King's-block in the model dwellings in Stoney Lane suggest any of the known suspects?

And where is this in relationship to Goulston St.? Never mind, just Googled and oh, my -- 3/10 of a mile and 7 minutes -- a native would know short cuts from the looks of the map . . .

thx,
curious

[lynn cates]

prevarication

Hello Damaso. Good question.

We know that a few details were omitted about Sailor Man just for the reasons you suggest.

If a City PC came near Mitre sq and saw the culprit, then it must have been Harvey or Watkins. But if it was one of them, not only was information withheld, but also prevarication was done at inquest, as per testimony.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Coles

Hello Jon. Of course, Sagar's story does not fit Mitre sq. Perhaps it refers to Coles?

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks Jon. I don't remember seeing that before.

This is almost certainly the sighting by MM's City PC and interestingly the suspect is not only of Jewish appearance but also 'well known' to the police (ie easily catchable).

and that's why they never arrested him because they knew who he was all make sense to me

[Chris]

This is almost certainly the sighting by MM's City PC and interestingly the suspect is not only of Jewish appearance but also 'well known' to the police (ie easily catchable).

Interesting though that would be, I think it's probably a slip for 'well dressed', which appears in another version of the story:

http://cgp100.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SagarReports.htm

[Chris]

Hello Jon. Of course, Sagar's story does not fit Mitre sq. Perhaps it refers to Coles?

Yes - I think that is probably one of the ingredients of the story:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=143082&postcount=26

[Damaso Marte]

But if it was one of them, not only was information withheld, but also prevarication was done at inquest, as per testimony.

Here is some text from the Wikipedia article "Inquests in England and Wales"

The purpose of the inquest is to answer four questions:[6][7][8]

Identity of the deceased
Place of death
Time of death
How the deceased came by his/her death

Evidence must be solely for the purpose of answering these questions and no other evidence is admitted.[7] It is not for the inquest to ascertain "how the deceased died" or "in what broad circumstances", but "how the deceased came by his death", a more limited question.[7] Moreover, it is not the purpose of the inquest to determine, or appear to determine, criminal or civil liability, to apportion guilt or attribute blame

I suppose that, technically, one of the PCs seeing somebody flee the murder scene would not fall into these categories?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Damaso...clearly the role of a coroner has evolved over the years, and what is expected now, did not necessarily pertain in 1888. I don't claim to be expert in these matters, but this extract from a treatise on the 1887 Coroners Act suggests a far wider scope:-

The coroner should therefore inquire as to the circumstances of the death; where and when the deceased died or was found dead; by whom he was last seen alive ; who was present, or who first saw the body after death ; whether any known illness existed ; whether any negligence or blame is alleged against anyone ; whether the deceased has been seen by any medical practitioner ; what is the supposed cause of death, either known or suspected ; whether the death was sudden ; whether caused by violence, as wounds, burns, ill-usage, poison, suicide ; and whether any mystery is attached. In cases of accident he should inquire who was present, or who first saw the deceased after the accident.

If, then, it appears to be necessary to hold an inquest. the coroner should proceed forthwith to issue his warrant to summon a jury. Delay on his part is punishable.

All the best

Dave

[The Good Michael]

Hi Damaso...clearly the role of a coroner has evolved over the years, and what is expected now, did not necessarily pertain in 1888. I don't claim to be expert in these matters, but this extract from a treatise on the 1887 Coroners Act suggests a far wider scope:-

Dave,

Great stuff, but it still says nothing about investigating suspects. In my opinion, the inquest's point was to ascertain death and get out of there. I think missing testimony from people that we would have liked to have seen in the reports isn't there because it doesn't add enough to the inquest to warrant any difficulties that may have been encountered while trying to bring witnesses in. In short, let the police do the hard legwork and the questioning and let the inquest be short and simple.

Mike

[Stephen Thomas]

Of Course?

Hello Jon. Of course, Sagar's story does not fit Mitre sq. Perhaps it refers to Coles?

Hello Lynn

Sagar's story (unlike Stephen White's) specifically mentions Mitre Square so why doubt where he is referring to?

DS Godley told HL Adam that Mitre Square was surrounded by police that night.

[lynn cates]

Cox tales

Hello Chris. Thanks.

Do you see this as related to Cox's story?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

because. . .

Hello Stephen. Thanks.

Because:

1. he refers to Kate as Kelly--not Eddowes, Beddowes or Conway.

2. the receding footsteps sounds like Coles' case

3. no such constable was heard at inquest

Yes, some things were held back, but the coroner, Langham, said as much at inquest.

Cheers.
LC