Ask Monty……

[Herlock Sholmes]

In the case of the arguments you mentioned, there is only discord from Herlock, I personally have no issues with either Smith or Lambs estimates. If one takes Herlocks position, multiple corroborative accounts of events and times would have to all be incorrect by at least 20 minutes, even though 2 of the witnesses came from inside the club when called out. The club would have had a large visible clock, to time meetings, to time speeches, so the men would know when to leave.

A few minutes either way isnt problematic, there is no synchronization of all available timepieces here, ....but assuming that everyone other than the club staff guessed almost a half hour incorrectly, is.

Again…….two……not multiple.

[Michael W Richards]

Again…….two……not multiple.

Your having math troubles, if Issac K and Heschberg are correct, then estimating Spooner shortly thereafter because he says men were already there when he came in..is 3. Multiple.

Do you have even one secondary source that saw Louis arrive when he says, or Eagle, or that could verify that Eagle and Lave were in the empty passageway at the same time...though they oddly missed seeing each other.? No? So I guess multiple accounts that validate details in other independent stories is powerful stuff huh? Geez.

This isnt as hard as your making it... really. One wonders if its just obstinance or something else.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your having math troubles, if Issac K and Heschberg are correct, then estimating Spooner shortly thereafter because he says men were already there when he came in..is 3. Multiple.

Do you have even one secondary source that saw Louis arrive when he says, or Eagle, or that could verify that Eagle and Lave were in the empty passageway at the same time...though they oddly missed seeing each other.? No? So I guess multiple accounts that validate details in other independent stories is powerful stuff huh? Geez.

This isnt as hard as your making it... really. One wonders if its just obstinance or something else.

Your final sentence should be directed at the whole of ripperology Michael. I just wish that you’d stop posting in a tone that suggests that you are the one stating the obvious consensus and I’m the one suggesting the minority, fringe ideas. I’ll use your word “Geez.” Get a grip and look around you. 20 years of solitary conspiracist nonsense and nothing has changed. You have one potential/partial supporter. That’s all. Everyone is telling you that you are wrong but you are too arrogant to listen. And you’ve called me arrogant! Geez!

….

Geez again. You are using to mistaken witnesses to validate another. Nice plan.

……

If Hoschberg and Koz were with the body at 12.45 then Louis must have found the body just before that……why did Fanny see none of this? Do you discard Fanny to keep your 2 witnesses in the game thereby making it possible for Schwartz to have been there. Or do you dump the 2 to keep Fanny in the game?

…..

The big problem of course is that you need to imagine ‘lies’ to make things fit. I don’t.

[Michael W Richards]

At least your consistent, and obviously oblivious to the other posters whove been more politely citing the problems with your statements.

Geez again. You are using to mistaken witnesses to validate another. Nice plan.

Provide evidence that anyone of the witnesses you regularly accuse of error actually committed errors..or shut it. I can provide proof Louis lied or was incorrect about 1am. I can provide proof either Eagle or Lave or both lied about where they were and what they saw at 12:40. You have a hunch I suppose. And no libel fears.

If Hoschberg and Koz were with the body at 12.45 then Louis must have found the body just before that……

Progress...you get it.....but not fully. Not one person said Louis found the body aside from himself. He also said he arrived "precisely" at 1...so...grain of salt with Louis.

why did Fanny see none of this? Do you discard Fanny to keep your 2 witnesses in the game thereby making it possible for Schwartz to have been there. Or do you dump the 2 to keep Fanny in the game?

I dont know when Louis actually arrived, I dont know if he found Liz, I dont know the exact minutes between 12:35 and 1am that Fanny was at her door to the street. I do know she said "almost the whole time". I do know she was there continuously from around 12:50 until just after 1, I do know Louis was not and did not arrive during those 10 minutes, and I do know that Louis claimed to discover Stride, there is no actual proof he did. For all I know Louis might have been there since just after midnight, when I do not have a record from Fanny where she was. Liz is where Smith sees her at 12:35. She is where she dies when Lamb comes in, before 1am. The rest you can, and im sure will, make up for yourself, but the reality is that only you think these issues are solved by your hunches.

The big problem of course is that you need to imagine ‘lies’ to make things fit. I don’t.

On that last line, I think youre confusing me with yourself, Im the guy citing evidence for statements and your the guy just telling us who was mistaken in their account. Like just your belief should be enough. Based on your Herlockian expertise I assume.

When you can argue a point without resorting to an argument that is basically because I said so....then jump back in, but really for the time being, just spectating would be advisable. Grown ups are talking.

[Doctored Whatsit]

I don't think this private debate, which is becoming slightly heated, even belongs on "Ask Monty" ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't think this private debate, which is becoming slightly heated, even belongs on "Ask Monty" ...

Absolutely right DW. Not another word on here from me.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps JM might drop Neil a line as it might be a while until he next visits the site?

I posted this on another thread:

I’m fairly certain that Neil Bell said that it was the duty of a sergeant to go around telling Fixed Point officers that their period on duty was over. I also seem to remember Neil saying that if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to that duty. I’ll stand correcting on this of course Jeff but I’m pretty sure that’s what Neil said.

Wickerman responded with this:

Neil has always been an invaluable source of knowledge of Met police duties & operations. He only posted a week ago, so if he is still around I would like him to confirm what you wrote above. I ask because as far as I can tell there were 26 Fixed Point Duties in H Division, Two of which extended until 7:00 am, so we have 24 constables all finishing their F.P. duty at 1:00 am. How many sergeant's are sent out across the division to enable the constables to be relieved at 1:00am?
It just doesn't seem all that practical to me.

I can certainly see Wick’s point on this issue. Have I remembered incorrectly? Could you clear this one up please Neil?

Thanks.

[jerryd]

Perhaps JM might drop Neil a line as it might be a while until he next visits the site?

I posted this on another thread:

I’m fairly certain that Neil Bell said that it was the duty of a sergeant to go around telling Fixed Point officers that their period on duty was over. I also seem to remember Neil saying that if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to that duty. I’ll stand correcting on this of course Jeff but I’m pretty sure that’s what Neil said.

Wickerman responded with this:

Neil has always been an invaluable source of knowledge of Met police duties & operations. He only posted a week ago, so if he is still around I would like him to confirm what you wrote above. I ask because as far as I can tell there were 26 Fixed Point Duties in H Division, Two of which extended until 7:00 am, so we have 24 constables all finishing their F.P. duty at 1:00 am. How many sergeant's are sent out across the division to enable the constables to be relieved at 1:00am?
It just doesn't seem all that practical to me.

I can certainly see Wick’s point on this issue. Have I remembered incorrectly? Could you clear this one up please Neil?

Thanks.

See post #2 here Herlock. (Fixed Point Duty and The Double Event - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums). Is that what you're looking for?

[Herlock Sholmes]

See post #2 here Herlock. (Fixed Point Duty and The Double Event - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums). Is that what you're looking for?

Hi Jerry, that could have been part of what I was thinking about, thanks. I’m now wondering if I had misremembered?

[Wickerman]

I think we have a solution.

The posting you refer to Mike explains that a City police sergeant would meet his beat constable at a designated point on his beat to check that all was ok.
This is not a Fixed Point as understood in Met. Police terminology.
It is also very likely a Met. sergeant or Inspector would make similar arrangements with their own beat constables - merely to check on the status of their duty.
And, (recall our discussion in the Stride case), this arrangement ensures the beat constable keeps his beat to a known schedule. That, for instance, PC Smith would be aware of the time as he progresses around his beat.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think we have a solution.

The posting you refer to Mike explains that a City police sergeant would meet his beat constable at a designated point on his beat to check that all was ok.
This is not a Fixed Point as understood in Met. Police terminology.
It is also very likely a Met. sergeant or Inspector would make similar arrangements with their own beat constables - merely to check on the status of their duty.
And, (recall our discussion in the Stride case), this arrangement ensures the beat constable keeps his beat to a known schedule. That, for instance, PC Smith would be aware of the time as he progresses around his beat.

I’d still like to hear from Neil though Wick. I could be completely wrong of course but I really do have the strongest feeling that Neil said that a Sergeant ended the FP PC’s duty and that occasionally another officer stepped in to perform that duty.

I can’t have imagined it…

Can I ?

Then again… I’ve been wrong before….June 14th 1983 it was…nightmares

[Wickerman]

You may be right, I'm just guessing based on what I've read.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You may be right, I'm just guessing based on what I've read.

I may be right but I wouldn’t bet on it Wick. I’ve been convinced before and been proven wrong.

[Monty]

My ears are burning

[Herlock Sholmes]

My ears are burning

Hi Neil,

I was questioning if my memory was even worse than I thought it was. It’s on the subject of Fixed Point officers. Did you say that their duty ended when a sergeant arrived and told them it was over and that occasionally if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to the role? Or have I got it wrong?

Cheers