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    Hello All. I have gone back over DC Halse's testimony at the inquest and wonder if the police at Old Jewry had some tips about the night of the "Double Event"?

    "On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry, I directed a number of police in plain clothes to patrol the streets of the City all night.'

    What were those special instructions? Why were they given? Had someone received a warning or tip?

    "At two minutes to two o'clock on the Sunday morning, when near Aldgate Church, in company with Detectives Outram and Marriott, I heard that a woman had been found murdered in Mitre-square. We ran to the spot, and I at once gave instructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man stopped and examined. I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two . . ."

    Why go there? Is it possible that he got a tip to do so? Who were the 2 men he detained?

    I cannot find any thread for this discussion. Please forgive if it's been discussed previously.

    Cheers.
    LC

  • #2
    "On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry, I directed a number of police in plain clothes to patrol the streets of the City all night.'

    What were those special instructions? Why were they given? Had someone received a warning or tip?
    Youve inserted the word 'special' Lynn. Yet Halse does not state the instructions were special at all.

    City CID were given instructions to search outbuildings, passages etc as part of there duties. They, along with the beat officers, were also told to keep an eye out for suspicious couples after the murder of Chapman. This may have been highlighted in their Police Orders (equivalent to the US Roll call). Its no indication he was tipped off.

    He also stated he was conducting these searches through the Aldgate area along with Marriott and Outram. The 3 heard that there had been a murder across the way in Mitre Square and made there way to there. Halse, seeing the scene itself was secured by Watkins et al then instructed Marriott and Outram to fan out from the square and obviously Halse took the North West option.

    The two men were never identified.

    I see nothing at all suspicious in Halses statements. He was following procedure in search the outbuilding, alleyways, etc and took a pro-active role at the scene.

    Monty




    Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

    Comment


    • #3
      interpolation

      Hello Monty. Yes, I interpolated "special." I made the assumption that these were not the routine orders. If so, perhaps to mention them was redundant?

      I notice you interpolated the word "suspicious." I am asking only if there were tips dropped from somewhere.

      Thanks.

      Cheers.
      LC

      Comment


      • #4
        Lynn,

        If so, perhaps to mention them was redundant?

        I am guessing you were not in the military or similar organizations. Constant repetition of the routine and often bloody obvious is standard operating proceedure.

        Don.
        "To expose [the Senator] is rather like performing acts of charity among the deserving poor; it needs to be done and it makes one feel good, but it does nothing to end the problem."

        Comment


        • #5
          theirs not to question why

          Hello Don. Perhaps. I wonder, however, why not, "As always, I ordered that . . ."?

          But, as you rightly observe, the foot soldier is to sign in triplicate and obey.

          Thanks.

          Cheers.
          LC

          Comment


          • #6
            Doesn't one need to know if it was common practice for Halse to direct plain clothes officers to patrol the city all night? If he is saying it from habit that is understandable, but if it is not the norm, it would be a odd and potentially important find by Lynn I would think.
            I confess that altruistic and cynically selfish talk seem to me about equally unreal. With all humility, I think 'whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might,' infinitely more important than the vain attempt to love one's neighbour as one's self. If you want to hit a bird on the wing you must have all your will in focus, you must not be thinking about yourself, and equally, you must not be thinking about your neighbour; you must be living with your eye on that bird. Every achievement is a bird on the wing.
            Oliver Wendell Holmes

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi.
              Rightly or wrongly , I have always thought that Bleinkensops encounter at 130am, was with a plain clothes officer, who was stalking .. but not very well.
              Richard.

              Comment


              • #8
                It was the norm since August.

                From Insp. McWillaim's Oct 27 report to the Home Office:

                '"... acting upon stringent orders isued by the Commissioner with a view to preventing if possible a repetition of the murders which had previously been committed in Whitechapel and to keep close observation upon all prostitutes frequenting public houses and walking the streets, extra men in plain clothes have been employed by this department since August last to patrol the Eastern portion of the City..."

                Common procedure since then and maybe on a more heightened level on weekends. Halse was merely explaining to the court, for the record, what orders placed he and the other detectives there. If one looks at the passages leading from Mitre Square, and Halse's instructions to fan out from there, the path he took towards Goulston makes sense.
                Last edited by Hunter; 12-08-2010, 09:52 PM.
                Best Wishes,
                Hunter
                ____________________________________________

                When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you Hunter! Better safe than miss a clue!
                  I confess that altruistic and cynically selfish talk seem to me about equally unreal. With all humility, I think 'whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might,' infinitely more important than the vain attempt to love one's neighbour as one's self. If you want to hit a bird on the wing you must have all your will in focus, you must not be thinking about yourself, and equally, you must not be thinking about your neighbour; you must be living with your eye on that bird. Every achievement is a bird on the wing.
                  Oliver Wendell Holmes

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    instructions

                    Hello Hunter. So, "On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry . . . " refers to instructions received the previous August?

                    Thanks.

                    Cheers.
                    LC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      stalker

                      Hello Richard. Out of curiosity, whom was he stalking at 1:30?

                      Cheers.
                      LC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                        Hello Hunter. So, "On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry . . . " refers to instructions received the previous August?
                        Hi Lynn,

                        This is a quote from Halse's written deposition:

                        "On Saturday, the 29th of September from instructions I received I directed a number of Police Officers to patrol the City all night."

                        Naturally, detectives and non-assigned officers would receive specific instructions each day, depending upon many factors. The McWilliams report clarifies that the City Police had augmented its forces on its eastern border since August and would explain Halse's and the others presence in that area as a result of that policy.

                        As far as it being the result of a tip...well, the police got a lot of these during the murders. Appendex 2, Scotland Yard Investigates list several hundred tips and suggestions that were found by Don Rumbelow that were sent to the City Police alone and there is no telling how many were long discarded before. They would have been running around in circles if they had acted on many of them. Their best defence was to do just what they did - strengthen the patrols along the eastern edge of the City. PC Long was spending his first night on beat in Goulston St. as well ( transferring from A Division)... so what did the Met police know?

                        What we're certain they did know was the notice of the 'Dear Boss' letter that very day (Sept. 29) from the Central News Agency. While they eventually seemed to consider it a hoax, this may not have been the case at that time. As was previously mentioned, this was a Saturday night coupled with the letter writer's promise that they would 'soon hear' from him. No matter what hindsight tells us, they would have been foolish at that time to not take that into account.

                        A credible tip could be possible, but its speculation; while we do know that Fraser had ordered intensified patrols since August.
                        Last edited by Hunter; 12-09-2010, 03:21 AM.
                        Best Wishes,
                        Hunter
                        ____________________________________________

                        When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          good explanation

                          Hello Hunter. With your suggestion about possible tips and the letter received--hoax or not--you are singing my song. One gets the impression, reading Halse's missive, that something was afoot. A tip, as you suggest, would provide a good explanation.

                          But it's still odd that Goulston st was not their eastern boundary, but rather, a good bit beyond. Perhaps the 2 chaps Halse detained saw something suspicious there?

                          Cheers.
                          LC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            But it's still odd that Goulston st was not their eastern boundary, but rather, a good bit beyond. Perhaps the 2 chaps Halse detained saw something suspicious there?
                            Do you not think that would have been reported Lynn?

                            The boundary is irrelevant if the Constable thinks a crime has been or is about to take place.

                            Monty




                            Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                            http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              respondeo quod

                              Hello Monty.

                              "Do you not think that would have been reported Lynn?"

                              Possibly. I suppose it depends on how concrete or abstract it was.

                              "The boundary is irrelevant if the Constable thinks a crime has been or is about to take place."

                              Quite true. And no doubt one had taken place. But there was a good deal of territory in the west part of Spitalfields. Why there, particularly?

                              Which brings me to your, " . . . or is about to take place." Now you're talking! A tip?

                              Cheers.
                              LC

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