The Secret Special Branch Ledgers

[Phil Carter]

Thanks Chris,

My memory isn't what it was.. great reminder.

best wishes

Phil

[Chris]

My memory isn't what it was.. great reminder.

It helps if you're subjected to the torture-chamber on a regular basis, and are forced continually to try to calculate the shortest escape route.

[Hamrammr]

As an American, I don't fully understand British addresses, although I'm starting to catch on. Geography is not an interest of mine and doesn't come naturally to me. So is Kensington a town, road, or both?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Kensington could be described as a borough (of which there are a multitude in London). I think (I'm a Londoner but no historian) that all the boroughs used to be small towns/villages until they were swallowed up by the growing city. Then there's the 'City of London' (aka The Square Mile) which has it's own police force. This is where the problems with jurisdiction arose during the Whitchapel Murders. I won't say any more in case I'm digging a very deep hole for myself. But hope this explains a little more what Kensington is, i.e. an area of London.

Peter Ackroyd's A Biography of London is apparently very good if you want to read about the formation and history of the city. Full of fascinating tidbits like the origin of the names of some of the areas like Spitalfields (From Hospital Fields) and Houndsditch from a place where dog carcasses used to be thrown over the old city wall... Can't remember why, possibly as biological warfare to ward off attackers.

Hope this helps!

Dean

[Chris]

I stated that William Magrath "was visiting England and Ireland in late 1888", which I believe is no more than is implied by any reasonable interpretation of the Lippincott's advertisement. Thankfully the information found by Debs has confirmed that, in terms of the timing, that interpretation was correct.

And in view of the excerpt below from the listing for Bedford Gardens, Kensington, in the 1889 Post Office Directory of London - which would have been based on information compiled towards the end of 1888, of course - it's clear that William Magrath the artist was not only in London but at 57 Bedford Gardens in late 1888. I think there can be no reasonable doubt that he is the person referred to in the Special Branch record.

[Debra A]

And in view of the excerpt below from the listing for Bedford Gardens, Kensington, in the 1889 Post Office Directory of London - which would have been based on information compiled towards the end of 1888, of course - it's clear that William Magrath the artist was not only in London but at 57 Bedford Gardens in late 1888. I think there can be no reasonable doubt that he is the person referred to in the Special Branch record.

Yes, I agree.

[spyglass]

Hi all,

A well known painter of the time..a possible ripper suspect...where have I heard this before ?

[robhouse]

I think the difference in this case would be that no one is really suggesting that he is a real suspect, despite the fact that his name is mentioned in the Special Branch files. As Clutterbuck suggested, "In other words, as a consequence of being a "suspicious Irishman" he was also being put forward as a suspect for the "Jack the Ripper" series of murders."

It seems, from what little we know, that someone was suspicious of Magrath for some unknown reason, and apparently informed a uniformed officer of their suspicions. The officer then forwarded the information on to the Special Branch... whether it went any further than that is not known. Unless I am interpreting this incorrectly, which could be the case.

RH

[spyglass]

HI Robhouse,

I was being a little lighthearted, however...from little acorns do mighty oaks grow.

[Chris]

I think the difference in this case would be that no one is really suggesting that he is a real suspect, despite the fact that his name is mentioned in the Special Branch files. As Clutterbuck suggested, "In other words, as a consequence of being a "suspicious Irishman" he was also being put forward as a suspect for the "Jack the Ripper" series of murders."

It seems, from what little we know, that someone was suspicious of Magrath for some unknown reason, and apparently informed a uniformed officer of their suspicions. The officer then forwarded the information on to the Special Branch... whether it went any further than that is not known. Unless I am interpreting this incorrectly, which could be the case.

I think it's difficult to gauge the sequence of events without more information, but I'm not really convinced by the argument that Magrath was put forward as a Ripper suspect just because he was a "suspicious Irishman". Presumably many of the entries in the ledger related to suspicious Irishmen, but Trevor Marriott has said on another thread that only three people are named in it as Ripper suspects.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=137248&postcount=66

To put that into context, Clutterbuck estimated that the ledger contained something like 30,000 entries. So I think there must have been some more specific reason to connect Magrath with the murders than the fact that he was a "suspicious Irishman".

[robhouse]

I guess my point (which may be more like a question) concerns the purpose of the ledger itself. We have heard that it is a sort of index. According to Clutterbuck, it operated on 3 levels:

1. "As a register of correspondence sent to Special Branch by the rest of the Metropolitan Police, other Police Forces, the Home Office, other government departments and members of the public."

2. "As an index to the reports submitted by its own officers"

3. "As a nominal and subject index of people and topics mentioned at i) and ii) above."

I guess my question is whether this entry should "elevate" Magrath to being a seriously considered suspect, or whether it simply indicates that the SB received information, possibly via a uniformed MET policeman, tht someone was suspicious of him. It is my understanding that hundreds or thousands of men were suspected of being the Ripper, for various often insignificant reasons.

I do suppose however, that the fact his name ended up in SB files indicates that perhaps there was something more to it. But who knows. Again, I am still unclear as to why he ended up in the SB files at all. I assume this would have remained a MET police matter, were it not for the fact that Magrath was a "suspicious Irishman" --- presumably suspicious meaning dangerous, or something to that effect.

RH

[robhouse]

It would be difficult to guess at the contents of the SB files, (even having read Clutterbuck's thesis), but I think that if one were to scan them, you could get a general sense of the "type" of entries, and this might give some insight into the Magrath entry.

It seems to me that the majority of entries in the SB ledgers should pertain to Irish threats to domestic security in Britain... detailing information received from various informants (both overt and covert), payments to spies, monitoring of newspapers, surveillance etc. It is unclear to me why anything pertaining to the Ripper would have made it into the SB's jurisdiction at all, unless a Ripper inquiry (or information submitted) had to do with Irish fenianism (etc). Of course I could be wrong here. But as far as I understand it, SB was just a branch of the MET, and the regular CID detectives used probably most, if not all, of the same detecting methods that the SB did. Since the Ripper was clearly a criminal inquiry, it should have stayed in the hands of the MET. Unless, again, a person was both suspected of a criminal inquiry AND suspected of engaging in Irish Fenian activity.

Or am I completely wrong here?

RH

[spyglass]

Robhouse,

I would make you right on your last point, forgetting Tumblety for the moment,
Littlejohn seemed to be in the loop somewhere and Im sure that his main concern at the time was not a murderer in the east end unless it had connections to something else.

[robhouse]

I don't really know much about Tumblety, but hasn't there been some suggestion that he had some Fenian connections or something to that effect? It seems possible that this is the reason Littlechild knew of Tumblety, but may not have known about other Ripper suspects.

Again, I could be wrong here.

[spyglass]

somewhere along those lines yes, but I supose it also likely that many high ranking police officials from all departments often would meet and discuss certain issues of the day in a members club somewhere , and JTR would be the topic of the day.

[spyglass]

But I certainly think that SB was involved in the case somewhere.