The Bobbies and the Prostitutes

[Monty]

David,

Very informative article, you'll appreciate a splendid pic of Aldgate pump.

Thank you David, Rob and I do aim to please.

Yes, its a lovely shot indeed, one of my favs.


Monty

[DVV]

Excellent, Monty,
Rob and you are great!
...
Now, what Watkins did in 1872 doesn't necessarily mean he was a bad policeman in 1888, or that abusing prostitutes was common practice.
Although I have to admit it tells a little.

Amitiés
David

[KatBradshaw]

Kat,
I may be wrong, but I bet that during the ripper scare, at least, it would have been damned risky for a PC to follow a prostitute in Whitechapel to a secluded spot, with all the people on the look.

Amitiés,
David

Yes I agree. I thought that the inference was that in general police didn't dip their wicks, so to speak, but I have always had the other impression. Maybe it is due to nature of TV shows though.

[Monty]

David,

It shows that he was human and prone to misjudgement, contradictory to the general concensus that Watkins was an excellent copper.

I call pull up half a dozen stories in the current news where this sort of thing happens.

Was it rife? Ask any Policeman if they have heard similar stories and I bet you a bob to the pound that they will comeback with a yes.

Did it happen in 1888? I would suspect so.

Did it happen to any of the victims? I couldnt honestly say.


Monty

[DVV]

Hi Monty,

but how could a constable put pressure on a street prostitute of Whitechapel.
What kind of deal? "Give me yourself for free, or I arrest you for soliciting?"
I can't imagine a constable bringing a woman (who would have refused) to the police station. Too risky! These women had the gift of the gab, and weren't that much afraid, as shown by Eddowes...
Being dangerously close to street prostitutes was one thing, having sex for free was another, imo.
It has never been described as a common practice in Automn 1888, though there were so many journalists working in the area.

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

Kat,
I may be wrong, but I bet that during the ripper scare, at least, it would have been damned risky for a PC to follow a prostitute in Whitechapel to a secluded spot, with all the people on the look.

Amitiés,
David

Hello David, Neil, all,

Indeed it would. The thing I then think of is what sort of questioning Watkins, with his previous, got from his superiors. And how reliable, as a policeman, did they regard him? His testimony as to time in the Eddowes murder, is pretty crucial.

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

David,

but how could a constable put pressure on a street prostitute of Whitechapel.

What kind of deal? "Give me yourself for free, or I arrest you for soliciting?"

Basically yes.

Too risky! These women had the gift of the gab, and weren't that much afraid, as shown by Eddowes...

Well, we dont really know Eddowes do we? We have a few press reports from Family and Friend but nothing to indicate she had the Gift of the gab.

However, I digress. I suggest you read Mayhews Victorian Underworld. I believe there are passages that allude to Policemen and prositutes which pre date the murders by some 30 years.

Monty

[DVV]

I did not express myself well, as usual...
I couldn't say such things can't happen, but still, I've never come across a press report from 1888 alluding to this as a common practice.
This aside, it's strange to consider that Watkins has been merely fined 2/6 for what having sex on duty, while Chandler has been demoted to sergeant for being drunk.

Amitiés
David

[Phil Carter]

I did not express myself well, as usual...
I couldn't say such things can't happen, but still, I've never come across a press report from 1888 alluding to this as a common practice.
This aside, it's strange to consider that Watkins has been merely fined 2/6 for what having sex on duty, while Chandler has been demoted to sergeant for being drunk.

Amitiés
David

Hello again,

Yes, it is hard to imagine any "mitigating circumstances" to be taken into account, isnt it? "Sorry Sarg, she forced me with a knife....I had no choice"

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

David,

I came arcoss reports prior to 1888 and since 1888. I cant believe the practice stopped. However, as you correctly point out, it would have been a risky act for a PC to do during the murder scare and in that particular area.

Chandler, due to his rank, was made an example of. Which sometimes happened. Like I saw, I feel it may have had something to do with the fact he had just moved up a rate and, more importantly, such things 'happened' and were deemed unimportant.


Phil,

This is the reason Rob and I included it. It brings into doubt his integrity. However, I must stress that it was some years prior to the murders and, from what I can remember, he kept his nose fairly clean since then.

It would seem as if he redeemed himself to a degree.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Neil,

I agree, it was many years before. And like I always have said with JTR. Again, something always seems to come along to throw HALF a spanner in the works that gives rise to more intrigue.

I have often thought that had Abberline all the info we now have, with the myriad of possibilities on every level, and a question, almost, about every person and every situation, he would have resigned Nov 10th.

Perhaps Warren saw the problems and said, "blow this for a game of soldiers, I'm off..."

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

Hello David, Neil, all,

Indeed it would. The thing I then think of is what sort of questioning Watkins, with his previous, got from his superiors. And how reliable, as a policeman, did they regard him? His testimony as to time in the Eddowes murder, is pretty crucial.

best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil,

Gordon Brown examined the body at about 2.20 and concluded that "she must have been dead most likely within the hour."

Which means only 10/15 minutes after "Watkins timing", if I can say so.

Had the doctor estimated the TOD half an hour earlier than he did, then we would have reasons to doubt Watkins' testimony, but that's not the case.

Amitiés, and Merry Christmas too,
David

[DVV]

However, I must stress that it was some years prior to the murders and, from what I can remember, he kept his nose fairly clean since then.

It would seem as if he redeemed himself to a degree.

Monty

There will be more for a repentant sinner than a hundred just, no?
Sorry, that must be Christmas.

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

David,

Indeed. But I must say this. According to Morris' testimony, and I read from The A-Z as I write...

"...Reported (Morris) that the warehouse door was ajar and he had not heard a sound in the square. As a rule he heard the beat policeman's footsteps every fifteen minutes, but he heard nothing until the Police Constable Watkins came to the warehouse for help at about 01.45a.m...." my emphasis.

So I ask you this... on this thread the words "turn a blind eye" have been used. Did Morris? Og course it is pure unadulterated speculation. No basis for conclusion at all.

If I were Watkin's superior, I'd have raked him over the coals to find out if he had transgressed in any way. This was the worst Ripper murder yet.

Monty,

I'm glad you said "a" degree, and not the third, or thirty third...I know that PC Watkins was on the Square (Mitre)... hahaha... but thats the last thing we need...lol

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

Hi Phil,

according to the Sourcebook, Morris said : "I heard no noise in the Square before I was called by constable Watkins. If there had been any cry of distress I must have heard it."
That makes a difference, compared to the A Z. But I may have missed something.

Amitiés,
David