question about DNA and bodies

[celticsun]

Ok, I see what you mean, .....I suppose it would be difficult to get any permission from relatives of a victim like Kelly though.....we have no idea where she really came from or who might be descended from her birth family.

All the best

Hi Perry,

What I meant was getting permission from the proper authorities for the exhumation and testing in the absence of known (proven) descendants. Another thought: I don't know whether there are DNA databases for people convicted of, or charged with, cirmes in England or Ireland as there are in the U.S. but, assuming their existence, (I seem to remember reading somewhere that England has one) it would be rather simple to run MJK's DNA through the database. I'm well aware that this is probably, technically not legal but it's the type of small infraction that's done all the time.

Sincerely,

Celticsun

[pr1mate]

As usual I am confused. Can someone please set me straight.

1. The bodies were examined for semen and none was found?

2. The woman were checked and the ripper did not have sex with them?

These are prostitutes in a time where hygiene was not the same as today's standards. Some of the woman were said to have had clients that day. If I am correct, how in the world would there be no semen found on the body or clothes AND no sign of intercourse? It seems that between clients these woman went for a drink vs going home for a nice shower and change of clothes.

[belinda]

There was no sign of "sexual activity" I think it was put more delicately at the time

[lynn cates]

recent connection

Hello Mate and Belinda. Actually, the LVP phrase was "recent connection."

The best.
LC

[ChrisGeorge]

I believe it's possible to trace where a person grew up by analysing isotopes in their bones and teeth. Whether this would be sensitive enough to establish whether Kelly grew up in Ireland or Wales I'm not sure. I'm offering this up as a possibility, if only to point out that there's more that can be done these days than just DNA testing.

Hi Gareth

If Mary Jane Kelly's skeleton could be recovered, a lot could be learned about the cuts to her bones. From the study of bones of a victim of a knife attack a forensic anthropologist might be able to use such data to determine what type of blade was used, and in the case of MJK to detail the exact wounds received and determine whether an axe really was used on her right femur as has been postulated.

Here's an interesting Forensic Science website. One section of the site specifically deals with Forensic Anthropology and provides information on the types of things that can be learned from skeletal remains.

All the best

Chris

[belinda]

Hi Gareth

If Mary Jane Kelly's skeleton could be recovered, a lot could be learned about the cuts to her bones. From the study of bones of a victim of a knife attack a forensic anthropologist might be able to use such data to determine what type of blade was used, and in the case of MJK to detail the exact wounds received and determine whether an axe really was used on her right femur as has been postulated.

Here's an interesting Forensic Science website. One section of the site specifically deals with Forensic Anthropology and provides information on the types of things that can be learned from skeletal remains.

All the best

Chris

You have a good point there.I never thought of that.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks for those links, Chris.

[Bob Hinton]

Examining Bodies

just wondering if it has ever been considered to exhume and examine the bodies of the victims? weren't they likely to have been buried in the clothes they were wearing at the time of their deaths? couldn't any blood, hair, saliva, semen, or possibly even fingerprints be lifted 120 years after the fact?

For what purpose? Fingerprints and DNA are completely useless unless you have something to compare it to. The police had the DNA of the Night Stalker (Delroy whatever) for many years, it didn't help them catch him.

[Mike Covell]

Bobs right, taking DNA samples would only give us a reference sample and without another sample to compare it to the process would be a waste of time.

Unless, of course, one plans on testing every named suspect, and every other resident of the East End during this period?

[Cubitt]

I'm sure I saw a documentary a few years ago where the possibility of recovering the Whitechapel murderers DNA was postulated. IIRC, the shawl of one of the victims (I think either Nichols, Eddows or Chapman) is still in existence and still has blood stains on it, presumably of said victim.

I'm sure they tried testing it but the DNA from the blood was too old and corrupt to tell them anything. And as others have already said, what would they have to compare it to anyway.

Did anyone else see this program?

As usual I am confused. Can someone please set me straight.

1. The bodies were examined for semen and none was found?

2. The woman were checked and the ripper did not have sex with them?

These are prostitutes in a time where hygiene was not the same as today's standards. Some of the woman were said to have had clients that day. If I am correct, how in the world would there be no semen found on the body or clothes AND no sign of intercourse? It seems that between clients these woman went for a drink vs going home for a nice shower and change of clothes.

Pr1mate, if I understand you correctly - you mean to say that it's odd that NO evidence of intercourse was found, when these women relied on prostitution as a living. It should have been expected to have found evidence of intercourse from customers other than Jack?

[lynn cates]

success, or not

Hello Mate and Cubitt.

"It should have been expected to have found evidence of intercourse from customers other than Jack?"

Of course, business could be slow. If I recall properly, Polly, Annie and possibly Kate were all soliciting around their TOD. Polly and Annie were both desperately seeking doss money; Kate had just been released from jail. It is quite likely they had not succeeded by the time they were killed.

The best chaps.
LC

[Cubitt]

Hello Mate and Cubitt.

"It should have been expected to have found evidence of intercourse from customers other than Jack?"

Of course, business could be slow. If I recall properly, Polly, Annie and possibly Kate were all soliciting around their TOD. Polly and Annie were both desperately seeking doss money; Kate had just been released from jail. It is quite likely they had not succeeded by the time they were killed.

The best chaps.
LC

Ah, good point Lynn. That would explain why they were still out and working. Poor women, what a life.

I'd never really considered it before but I guess prophylactics wouldn't have been used back then. STD's must have been rife.

[lynn cates]

revenge

Hello Cubitt.

"STD's must have been rife."

I'll say. And syphilis was chief. When I got interested in the ripper, about 30 years ago, it was just a given that he was getting revenge on prostitutes for giving him (or a loved one) syphilis. And the prime suspect was Dr. Cream. (I'm not kidding!) Things have changed drastically of late.

The best.
LC

[pr1mate]

Pr1mate, if I understand you correctly - you mean to say that it's odd that NO evidence of intercourse was found, when these women relied on prostitution as a living. It should have been expected to have found evidence of intercourse from customers other than Jack?

Yes. I am saying there should have been signs even if it wasn't from the ripper.

Of course, business could be slow. If I recall properly, Polly, Annie and possibly Kate were all soliciting around their TOD. Polly and Annie were both desperately seeking doss money; Kate had just been released from jail. It is quite likely they had not succeeded by the time they were killed.

The best chaps.
LC

I am not sure which of the girls it was but she was said to have had 2 customers then went to the bar/pub then went back out again. As is the case today, these woman do not have 1 customer then call it quits. They are out all night getting as many customers as they can. So, just because they were still looking for another customer does not necessarily mean they had not had 1 or more earlier. I could be wrong. Indeed they could have struck out all night but I doubt it.

[lynn cates]

"I won't be long"

Hello Mate. It sounds as though you may be describing Liz Stride. She was seen with a man or two, but it is far from clear that they were clients.

Both Polly and Annie had been turned out due to lack of doss money. Apparently both would have been happy to turn a trick or two and call it a night. This from their individual dicta at their respective boarding houses.

Cheers.
LC