City PC Thompson?

[aspallek]

Many thanks, Chris Scott. You are quite right. How I missed the significance of the phrase "as I have already said" I don't know. Ernest Thompson was neither a City PC (per Macnaghten's witness) nor was he a PC in 1888. Thus I will now have to agree that you are correct in that Sir Basil believed Ernest Thompson was the Mitre Court PC witness.

1. Sir Basil reads in Griffiths of a Mitre Court PC-witness.
2. Sir Basil knows of only one PC sighting of the murderer, that being Ernest Thompson's connected to the Coles murder.
3. Sir Basil assumes Thompson to be Griffith's (in actuality Macnaghten's) PC-witness.
4. Sir Basil apparently assumes Mitre Court to be near Swallow Gardens.

This begs more than a few questions, however. For example, what about the PC sighting on Berner Street by PC Smith I believe it was? Clearly Sir Basil believes Stride to be a Ripper Victim.

Also, Sir Basil indicates that there were five Ripper murders with a possible sixth. The sixth must be Coles. But the fact that he considers the Thompson sighting to be a firm Ripper-sighting would imply that Sir Basil really believes Coles to be a genuine victim. This would eliminate the "drowned doctor" (Druitt-like) suspect, yet Sir Basil dutifully lists him among the suspects. There appears to be massive confusion and conflation going on.

The one very significant detail here, however, is that there may indeed have been a sighting in Mitre Court and that this specific information had to come from a non-Aberconway source since the Macnaghten-Aberconway memo says only "near Mitre Square." That is , unless this is just a weird goof that coincidently happens to make sense geographically.

edit -- On page 335 Sir Basil says that "in the beginning of 1889" there was another murder of the Ripper kind but that the police considered it to be a copy-cat killing. Indeed, Sir Basil states that it was the "belief" of the police that the Druitt-like suspect was the Ripper. Earlier (p. 190), Sir Basil had implied that the police suspected the Druitt-like suspect while he was still alive but there was insufficient evidence to detain him. This information he seems to be carried over from Sims or from Sims's source. Perhaps the "early 1889" murder is a conflation of McKenzie (July 1889) with Coles (February, i.e. "early", 1891).

[Chris Scott]

Hi Chris
I should have made it clear that the Kosminski connection was purely in connection to the Polish Jew reference in the alleged Mitre Court sighting, listed as a retelling of the three McNaghten suspects

[aspallek]

The conflation may have begun with Sims:

"The first murder was committed on Aug.31, and the last on Nov. 9 - the night of Lord Mayor's day - therefore, five times during three months did the Ripper rise from his orgy of blood, and walk through the streets of London to his home without by his appearance attracting the attention of one single witness who could be called upon to give evidence of any value.

One man only, a policeman, saw him leaving the place in which he had just accomplished a fiendish deed, but failed, owing to the darkness, to get a good view of him. A little later the policeman stumbled over the lifeless body of the victim."

The second paragraph clearly appears to be referring to Thompson-Coles, however Sims does not include Coles as a Ripper victim as the first paragraph indicates. Elsewhere, Sims lists the Macnaghten five as the only genuine Ripper murders.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

For example, what about the PC sighting on Berner Street by PC Smith I believe it was?

Sorry to derail a little, but since it's been brought up, that's what I always assumed the 'City PC witness' thing stemmed from; a bit of confusion with the Doube Event's, well, events, and mixing PC Smith up with Lawende and inadvertently fabricating the mysterious City PC.

[aspallek]

No derailment at all! Yes, that is what I always thought likely. However, if the "Mitre Court" detail is correct it could not be Lawende as that is not where his sighting took place. Rob's revelation here is rather significant.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Sweet!

If this sighting did actually happen in a spot previously unknown, that then is interesting and just like you I'd like to know more, though sadly I think it's another mix-up of the Frances Coles' murder and Eddowes', but still, confusing Mitre Court and Swallow Gardens isn't exactly an easy mistake to make unless whoever made it seriously skimmed the info they had.

[aspallek]

If I understand Watkins' beat it would have taken him into what was once known as Mitre Court. The other possibility is the night watchman Morris, who was an ex-PC. There is no record of either of them sighting anyone, however.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

The Morris thing always creeps me out; the fact that he was only a matter of yards away while Jack was doing his thing... scary thought.

Here's a thought: could the alleged 'did you see a man and woman go through here?' witness be the mysterious Thompson? Sorry if it's already been mentioned, I haven't read the entire thread.

[Monty]

Andy

If I understand Watkins' beat it would have taken him into what was once known as Mitre Court. The other possibility is the night watchman Morris, who was an ex-PC. There is no record of either of them sighting anyone, however.

Yes, Watkins beat would have taken him through Mitre Court on occasion. What must be remembered is on that night he was working an unusual left handed beat.


Blenkinsopp was working not far from Mitre Court. Though a Nightwatchman and not a PC he does tell of a curious conversation with a man who asks him if he saw a man pass by with a woman. This around 1.30am. It has been alleged that this man may have been a plain clothed DC (possibly Halse spreading out from the scene) and Blenkinsopp got his times mixed.

My point is that Blenkinsopp must me considered in all this and the City PC may well have been a DC.

However, my gut feeling? Not worth the paper they are written on. An unfortunate mix of reports, stories and falsities.

Monty

[aspallek]

Andy

My point is that Blenkinsopp must me considered in all this and the City PC may well have been a DC.

However, my gut feeling? Not worth the paper they are written on. An unfortunate mix of reports, stories and falsities.

Monty

Yes, agreed on both counts. The main thing that keeps my attention alive is the additional specific detail whereby Macnaghten's "near Mitre Square" has been specified as "in Mitre Court" in Griffiths and subsequent authors Sims and Thompson, as Mitre Court is indeed "near Mitre Square." It could still be a mere confusion of names but it is quite a remarkable coincidence that such a confusion yielded the actual (former) name of a location that fits the original "near Mitre Square."

This additional specific detail lends an air of credibility to the report.

[Monty]

Andy,

Yes, you are right, it is rather specific. I hadnt though of that aspect.

A very good point.

Monty

[aspallek]

Sir Basil's Sources

It appears that Sir Basil Thompson relied on Frederick Porter Wensley (Forty Years of Scotland Yard) in his recounting of the Ripper murders, as well as Major Arthur Griffiths.

Wensley: "Officially, only five (with a possible sixth) murders were attributed to Jack the Ripper.

Thompson: "Altogether five (with a possible sixth) were ascribed to Jack the Ripper...."

Wensley: "It is probable that had Thompson been a little more experienced he would have taken up the chase of the fugitive immediately."

Thompson: "An experienced officer would have pursued him...."

Wensley: "I fancy that the lost opportunity preyed on Thompson's mind, for I heard him refer to it in despondent terms more than once, and he seemed to regard the incident as presaging some evil fate for himself.

Thompson: "This error of judgment preyed on the constable's mind; he seemed to think that it presaged misfortune for himself."

Wensley: "The first time he went on night duty he discovered a murder; the last time he went on duty, some years later, he was murdered himself."

Thompson: "The first time he had gone on night duty he had discovered a murder; some years later he himself was murdered...."

[Robert]

TIMES OCT 19th 1938

[John Bennett]

Nice post, Robert.

Notice Church Passage, Mitre Square is also there, to be changed to St. James's Passage.

[Scott Nelson]

...P.C. Harvey encountering a short Pole on Little Duke Street shortly before he enters Church Passage...