City PC Thompson?

[aspallek]

In reading Sir Basil Thompson's The Story of Scotland Yard, I ran across his curious statement that a police constable saw JtR in "Mitre Court." Of course, this seems to be an error taken over from Griffiths and based on Macnaghten's statement in the Aberconway version of his memo where he makes mention of a "City PC" witness at Mitre Square.

Sir Basil, however, identifies this PC witness by the name of "Thompson." Once again, this would seem to be a confusion with the PC who discovered Coles' body, one PC Ernest Thompson. However, Sir Basil mentions the Coles case and PC Thompson just two paragraphs below his mention of the PC witness named "Thompson" and he gives no indication that he is talking about the same person. In fact, he identifies Ernest Thompson (he does not give the first name) as a "young officer" in 1891, implying that Sir Basil realizes he was not on the force in 1888. Furthermore, PC Ernest Thompson was with the Met while a PC witness at either Mitre Square or Mitre Court would almost have to be a City PC.

While I do believe this is probably an error, I also think we ought to ask whether there was a City PC named "Thompson" in 1888 who might have seen a suspect at either Mitre Square or possibly even Mitre Court, which is just off King's Bench Walk and also in the City.

Can anyone confirm whether or not there was a PC Thompson with the City Police in 1888?

[Robert]

Andy, there was a City PC E Thompson in Jan 1899 (press report). When he joined I've no idea.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

There was also a Police Constable Ernest Thompson 240H who was stabbed to death in 1900. I've no idea when he joined, but his eldest son was 12 [b.1888] at the time, if that's any sort of clue.

Regards,

Simon

[aspallek]

Thanks Simon, but I believe you have identified Ernest Thompson who found the dying body of Frances Coles. He was a Met PC. I was looking for the possibility of a City PC in 1888 by the name of Thompson.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Andy,

Given the ability of top cops to confuse the facts, could Sir Basil Thompson have been talking about Millers rather than Mitre Court?

Regards,

Simon

[Rob Clack]

The passage that connected Mitre Square to St James Place was at one time called Mitre Court. I can't confirm yet whether this was the case in 1888. It became Mitre Passage sometime in the 1930s.

Rob

[aspallek]

Ineteresting Rob. The Mirte Court I know of is adjacent to King's Bench Walk.

It was Griffiths who first made the "switch" from Mitre Square to Mitre Court. It seems that Sims and Sir Basil blindly followed.

Still seeking a City PC Thompson in 1888 if he exists.

[Monty]

Andy,

Interesting.

Cant find your City PC Thompson.

Have found this though...

The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.

My Weekly Crime Museum by George R Simms in LLoyds Weekly dated September 22nd 1907.

See attachment.

http://www.casebook.org/images/sims922.gif

Seems to be a well used story.

Cheers
Monty

[Rob Clack]

This is the Goads Map from 1939 showing Mitre Court. The name change occurred in 1938. There's no mention of Mitre Court on the 1887 Goads so there's little chance of knowing exactly when it was known as Mitre Court. My guess would be 1886 when the warehouses were built, but that's just a guess.



Rob

[aspallek]

Hi Rob,

That is highly interesting. It may reveal something about the source(s) used by Arthur Griffiths.

The sequence goes like this:

1. Macnaghten says witness was a "City PC" near Mitre Square.

2. Griffiths says witness was a "police-constable" in Mitre Court.

3. Sims says witness was a "policeman" in Mitre Court

4. Sir Basil Thompson says witness was a "Police Constable Thompson" in Mitre Court.
Now, I have always assumed Griffiths wrote his bit with Aberconway before him, or at least a document with the some content as Aberconway. There are two possibilities here.

A. Griffitths simply goofed and conflated "Miller's Court" with "Mitre Square," as Simon reasonably suggested.

B. Griffiths knew and was revealing more specific information than that which Macnaghten provided in Aberconway. In other words, Griffiths knew from a non-Aberconway source that this sighting took place not just "near Mitre Square" but in the adjacent Mitre Court.

Now (A) is the simpler explanation and the simpler explanation is usually correct. However, a number of factors mitigate toward (B):

i. Griffiths is unlikely to make such an error when copying from a document. He gets the other facts "correct."

ii. Writing after Griffiths, and probably with Griffiths in front of them, both Sims and Sir Basil blindly follow him in his "error" when they should know better. Indeed, elsewhere in the same article, Sims correctly identifies the murder spot as Mitre Square.

iii. In Aberconway, Macnaghten says the sighting took place not "in" but "near" Mitre Square, but gets no more specific than this. Well, Rob's "Mitre Court" is certainly "near" Mitre Square.

This added detail suggests to me that there may well have been a "sighting" in Mitre Court, that is "someone" sighted "someone." Whether this was "PC Thompson" or a "City PC" or a citizen who morphed into a PC in confused reports I don't know. Also, exactly who was sighted I don't know.

This is all very interesting and suggests to me that Griffiths had more than merely a copy of Aberconway in front of him as he was writing.

[aspallek]

Here are the relevant pages from Sir Basil Thompson's The Story of Scotland Yard (1936):

[Scott Nelson]

And what about the two witnesses in the "Orange Market", long thought to have been a confusion of Lawende and Levy on Duke Street?

[aspallek]

http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/collage/app?service=external/SearchResults&sp=Zmitre+court

The "Mitre Court, Fleet Street" is the one off King's Bench Walk, which now seems to be irrelevant.

I don't know, Scott. I'll have to look into it.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Andy
Many thanks for this interesting thread
In The Story of Scotland Yard there certainly seems to be confusion as to the location of the allegedly unique sighting.
In the pages you kindly posted there are two references by the author which share two characteristics:
1) Both are referred to as being unique in being a sighting of the killer by a police officer
2) Both involve a police officer named Thompson

The first is worded as follows:
"One was a Polish Jew reported by Police Constable Thompson, the one police officer who caught sight of the man in Mitre Court"
The second runs:
"In one case only, as I have already said, did a policeman have sight of the criminal. A young officer named Thompson was patrolling Chambers Street when a man came running our of Swallow Gardens towards him."

I think it is telling that the author uses the phrase "as I have already said," as this makes it clear, in my opinion, that both mentions relate to the same incident as there is only one claimed occasion on which a police officer saw the supposed killer. The incident in which Ernest Thompson came upon the body of Frances Coles is well reported and well attested. If the author really believed that the two incidents he referred to were one and the same, the implications are:
1) Mitre Court was at or in the vicinity of Swallow Gardens
2) The man seen by Thompson was Kosminski
We know the first to be false and there is no evidence to support the second.

I would suggest that what we are witnessing here is the garbling or conflating of reports which led to confusion, perhaps comparable with the very early reports of the murder of an unnamed woman in late 1887, the so called Fairy Fay murder. The alleged location of this murder (the corner of Osborn and Wentworth Streets) makes it highly probable in my opinion is that this is a fallacious and garbled version of the murder of Emma Smith four months later.

How an alleged sighting near the site of Eddowes's murder became attached to a real incident in the murder of Coles we will probably never know. The wording used by the author ("As I have already said") make it clear, in my opinion, that he thought both versions referred to the same event, and that the Thompson mentioned in connection with the Mitre Court report is, in fact, Ernest Thompson who found the dying Frances Coles.

[Chris]

If the author really believed that the two incidents he referred to were one and the same, the implications are:
1) Mitre Court was at or in the vicinity of Swallow Gardens
2) The man seen by Thompson was Kosminski
We know the first to be false and there is no evidence to support the second.

We do know the man seen by Thompson could not have been Aaron Kozminski, as he had been committed to Colney Hatch six days before the murder of Frances Coles.