City PC Thompson?

[aspallek]

...P.C. Harvey encountering a short Pole on Little Duke Street shortly before he enters Church Passage...

Hi Scott. Could you tell me where this is from? Also your previous mention of a sighting in Orange Market?

Thanks.

[aspallek]

You know, this is getting a bit weirder. I think I have shown above that Sir Basil Thompson must have had Wensley's book before him as he wrote, yet Wensley clearly writes:

Officially, only five (with a possible sixth) murders were attributed to Jack the Ripper. There was, however, at least one other, strikingly similar in method, in which the murderer had a very narrow escape. This occurred something more than two years after the supposed last Ripper murder.

The story is chiefly concerned with a very young officer named Ernest Thompson who had been only six weeks in the service when, on February 13, 1891 - an ominous date - he went out for the first time alone on night duty. A part of his beat was through Chambers Street, from which at that time a turning, most inappropriately named Swallow Gardens, ran under a dark, dismal railway arch towards the Royal Mint. Thompson was patrolling Chambers Street when a man came running out of Swallow Gardens towards him. As soon as he perceived the officer he turned tail, made off at speed in the opposite direction, and was in a few seconds lost to view.

Thompson moved into Swallow Gardens and on turning the corner came across the body of a murdered woman - Frances Coles - mutilated in much the same fashion as the victims of the Ripper. The spot had possibly been chosen because it commanded a view in three directions.

So how in the world can Sir Basil think this sighting has anything to do with the real Jack the Ripper and how can he identify it with the Mitre Court sighting which he clearly associates with a canonical murder?

[Robert]

Several newspapers reported Kate's murder as taking place in Mitre Court. At least one had it happening in both Mitre Court and Mitre Square on the same page!

[aspallek]

Thanks, Robert. It may all be only a remarkable coincidence then.

The other interesting thing though is that Sir Basil utilizes a mere PC's memoirs for a material fact such as the number of Ripper murders. I can understand his relying on Wensley for material relating to PC Thompson but to rely on Wensley for the number of victims seems a bit odd. Apparently, Sir Basil couldn't be bothered with doing a bit of research of his own.

Also my above question still holds: So how in the world can Sir Basil think this sighting has anything to do with the real Jack the Ripper and how can he identify it with the Mitre Court sighting which he clearly associates with a canonical murder?

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Was the alleged witness who asked 'did you see a man and woman go through here?' a real person or was that fabricated?

[Monty]

Andy

Hi Scott. Could you tell me where this is from? Also your previous mention of a sighting in Orange Market?

Thanks.

THE DAILY TELEGRAPH
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1888


DORSET-STREET MURDER.
INQUEST AND VERDICT.
DESCRIPTION OF THE ASSASSIN.

Comparatively little that was new was elicited by the coroner's inquiry into the death of Marie Jeanette Kelly. Going beyond the statements that have already appeared in these columns, the principal evidence was that of Mary Ann Cox, residing in Miller's-court, who described a man she had seen entering the court with the deceased. It is stated that the police attach weight to her description, and will circulate it in the usual manner. The account of the man and his attire agrees with some of those statements previously given, and disagrees with others. The Berner-street suspect was described as a very dark man. The Hanbury-street victim was seen in company with a dark foreign-looking man, and a similar description was given of a suspected individual at the time of the Buck's-row murder. It is noteworthy, however, that there were two descriptions given of the suspected Mitre-square and Hanbury-street murderers, which agree in some respects with that furnished by the witness Cox of the man seen in Kelly's company on Thursday night. About ten minutes before the body of Catherine Eddowes was found in Mitre-square, a man about thirty years of age, of fair complexion, and with a fair moustache, was said to have been seen talking to her in the covered passage leading to the square. On the morning of the Hanbury-street murder, a suspicious looking man entered a public-house in the neighbourhood. He was of shabby-genteel appearance and had a sandy moustache. The first of these descriptions was given by two persons who were in the Orange Market and closely observed the man. The City police have been making inquiries for this man for weeks past, but without success, and they do not believe that he is the individual described by Cox. On the other hand the Metropolitan authorities are inclined to attach significance to it. Cox stated that the man who accompanied Kelly to her home carried a can or pot of beer. No trace of this beer has been found in the room, nor of the pewter in the ashes of the grate. Inquiry has equally failed to obtain evidence of Kelly or any person similar to the man described having bought beer at any of the neighbouring public-houses. Considering the amount of drinking on and off the premises of these establishments near midnight the mere absence of evidence on this point would not be surprising in any case.

Monty

[aspallek]

That's very interesting, Monty, because that would be about the time of Lawende's sighting, and indeed, if Harvey was not one of these two people it may have been about the time he was peering into Mitre Square from Church Passage.

Mention of a "covered passage" means this had to be "Mitre Court" (later renamed "Mitre Passage") as the other entrances to the Square are open.

[Monty]

That's very interesting, Monty, because that would be about the time of Lawende's sighting, and indeed, if Harvey was not one of these two people it may have been about the time he was peering into Mitre Square from Church Passage.

Mention of a "covered passage" means this had to be "Mitre Court" (later renamed "Mitre Passage") as the other entrances to the Square are open.

Andy,

Absolutely right, it can only be one passage.

You may want to note that Blenkinisopp notes his conversation with a man at the same time also, and he was yards away from Mitre Court, in the open.

Monty

[aspallek]

Wasn't there a City PC who lived in Mitre Square? I'm not thinking of Morris but rather a serving PC.

[Robert]

That's right Andy, PC Richard Pearse at No. 3.

[Stewart P Evans]

Sloppy

Sorry Andy but you are again trying to read too much into secondary sources. This is a sloppy account by Thomson. It is clearly a confusion, combined with a lack of properly internalising his source material (a not uncommon factor in modern Ripper research too). We know the volumes that Thomson used when writing his book as the following bibliography appears at the back -



and there you have the requisite books for this confusion.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the extant official reports clearly show that there was no police officer witness who saw a suspect at or near Mitre Square that night. To try and suggest there was is an exercise in futility.

[aspallek]

Sorry Andy but you are again trying to read too much into secondary sources. This is a sloppy account by Thomson. It is clearly a confusion, combined with a lack of properly internalising his source material (a not uncommon factor in modern Ripper research too). We know the volumes that Thomson used when writing his book as the following bibliography appears at the back -

Thank you, Stewart. You are undoubtedly correct regarding Sir Basil. It is extremely sloppy work on his account and relying on Wensley's book for the accurate count or Ripper murders in inexcusable.

I have no doubt that there was officially no PC witness. The question is (not based on Thompson's work, btw) could there have been a sighting which was not reflected in official records?

The intriguing aspect now to me does not center around Sir Basil at all but is rather located in the transition from Macnaghten (Aberconway) to Griffiths. Where Macnaghten writes of a PC witness "near Mitre Square," Griffiths changes the location to "in Mitre Court." As Mitre Court is "near" Mitre Square, Griffiths seems to be specifying more clearly Macnaghten's comment which may mean he has additional information regarding such a sighting. If he does, this would tend to lend veracity to the claim of a "PC witness." Of course it could be a coincidence, with "Mitre Court" being an error for "Mitre Square" but it would be a singular coincidence in that the "error" makes perfect geographical sense.

I realize this is not likely but it bears investigation, in my opinion.

[jonathan wilson]

Pc Ernest thompson 240 was my great grandfatherand was stabbed to death in 1900 my mum believes that his brother Albert Thompson was in the city police and was in M divison in 1900 Ernest joined on the 29/12/1889 Albert was older and i believe was the officer in 1888 The other E Thompson mentioned is not a relative My grandfather is buried in tower hamlets

[perrymason]

Pc Ernest thompson 240 was my great grandfatherand was stabbed to death in 1900 my mum believes that his brother Albert Thompson was in the city police and was in M divison in 1900 Ernest joined on the 29/12/1889 Albert was older and i believe was the officer in 1888 The other E Thompson mentioned is not a relative My grandfather is buried in tower hamlets

Hi Jonathan, and welcome to Casebook....

Im sorry to hear of your grandfathers end, but found your connection with PC's of the area and times quite interesting. How do you know of the backgrounds, from your Mum primarily? Are there any specific stories in the family regarding the events in the late 1880's?

Best regards Jonathan.

[Celesta]

Hello Jonathan,

Welcome aboard.

Wensley spoke well of your great grandfather in his book 40 Years of Scotland Yard, describing his courage.

I'm reading the book now and it's very interesting.

I hope you enjoy your time here.