The Possible Murder of Georgina Byrne

[Joshua Rogan]

Ah, having read further, which is what I should have probably done in the first place, see the complexity in this case now: why would a mugger/robber be dressed in "gentlemanly" fashion?

http://www.victorianlondon.org/crime/swellmob.htm

[Pierre]

My dear boy, your extraordinary intellect has, I see, once again been put to incredible use in answering your own questions, with answers of such insight that I don't think they could have occurred to any other human being, let alone any other member of this forum.

Thank you, my dear boy, for solving the entire mystery surrounding Georgina Byrne's death.

Dear Oscar,

In those days the journalists loved to call everything a "Mystery".

Donīt forget that.

The so called "Mystery" in this case is a heart failure, something the journalists knew nothing about when it happened, combined with the statement about the "husband", another unexplained event when it happened.

You, on the other hand, have confused this simple little case of natural death and an opportunity for theft in the past with the specific and complex murders in 1888-1889.

The confusion is strange, and you have posted your thread about the little case in the section for

Police Officials and Procedures.

Discussion of the various police matters involved in the Jack the Ripper Investigation.

which led me to think that you had been drinking, my dear Oscar.

But obviously not from my bottle.

Cheers, Pierre

[Pierre]

Mais pourquoi, Pierre?

Because there is no other evidence.

[John G]

Because there is no other evidence.

Then it's a conundrum.

[John G]

http://www.victorianlondon.org/crime/swellmob.htm

That's interesting. Here are some more details:http://vcp.e2bn.org/justice/page11635-thieves.html

[John G]

I know, John. I spoke first and read the fine print later, too. Because the clippings were difficult to read, I skipped over the additions because of my eyesight. Then had to go back and re-read everything.

Human frailty.

I still think she had been dancing, probably with top-hat guy and he was either seeing her to her hotel or train station, perhaps even all the way over to her sister's place in Chelsea when she collapsed.

curious

Hi Curious,

Yes, that's possible. But then who was the other well-dressed man? And considering the fact she was married, and Victorian probity being what it was, is it likely that she would have remained in his company- and in public? Wouldn't there be the possibility of a major scandal if they were seen by someone who knew them? And if it was all perfectly innocent, why did the man disappear?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Curious,

Yes, that's possible. But then who was the other well-dressed man? And considering the fact she was married, and Victorian probity being what it was, is it likely that she would have remained in his company- and in public? Wouldn't there be the possibility of a major scandal if they were seen by someone who knew them? And if it was all perfectly innocent, why did the man disappear?

She was a widow John.

[John G]

She was a widow John.

Okay, but I doubt Victorian etiquette would not have allowed a woman of refinement to go out dancing by herself, i.e. unchaperoned.

[curious]

Okay, but I doubt Victorian etiquette would not have allowed a woman of refinement to go out dancing by herself, i.e. unchaperoned.

That's sort of the point, John, it would not have.

A respectable woman could not have gone dancing alone, to a club alone (if such things existed them and I suspect they did but don't know for sure) been out walking alone or unchaperoned in the company of a man at 11 p.m. without her reputation being ruined.

That's mostly the point here. Had she lived and anyone had learned of her little adventure, she would have been ruined.

curious

[Herlock Sholmes]

Okay, but I doubt Victorian etiquette would not have allowed a woman of refinement to go out dancing by herself, i.e. unchaperoned.

Sorry to be a nitpicker. You're absolutely right though John, no 'respectable' woman would be on the streets alone at 11pm. Surely she was with Top Hat Man?

[Pcdunn]

Hi Pat

To be honest I don't really know why I assumed they were men's boots? Perhaps it's because I worked in industry and had to wear boots that I tend to associate 'boots' with heavy, work footwear. Maybe Curious is right that they had been dancing? It certainly seems likely the Mrs Byrne and Top Hat Man were acquainted in some way. In the absence of other information it's also likely that the other man just stopped to help. Why was he holding her bag though?

Well, I've occasionally fallen in the street or on the sidewalk, and infrequently a passer-by had paused to help me by picking up whatever I may have dropped. So the explanation of a helpful stranger could apply here.

[Pcdunn]

Her death certificate confirms her age as 34.

Thanks for that information, David.

[Pcdunn]

So, what do you think was going on?

curious

I have a theory, based on her father's not knowing what she was doing in London.

I recently saw on Find My Past an article about "unregistered marriages" which might mean the couple had eloped, among other reasons for not registering their marriage.

Maybe Mrs. Bryne and TSH Man had not been given permission to marry, so had decided to elope together. He did, after all, claim to be her husband (though it is impossible to know if the ceremony had been performed yet-- indeed, I think they might have just arrived in town).
But with Georgina's heart attack, her new husband opted to steal away in order to avoid answering awkward questions. Supporting this interpretation is the fact that her family identifies her as "Mrs. Bryne, a widow."

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, I've occasionally fallen in the street or on the sidewalk, and infrequently a passer-by had paused to help me by picking up whatever I may have dropped. So the explanation of a helpful stranger could apply here.

I wonder why her son didn't live with her?

[Pcdunn]

I wonder why her son didn't live with her?

Maybe because she was employed?