Unknown Police Sergeant from H Division.........

[The Station Cat]

Ladies/Gents,

The below portrait of at this conjecture of an unknown Sergeant from H Division, sold on Ebay last night. I thought it might be an interesting topic of conversation. As I say I have not made any effort to identify him, as sadly I didn't win the auction. However, over the past week, I have been able to discover the following......

Collar Number 14H wearing either 1887 or 1897 Jubilee Medal, however, I strongly suspect it to be the 1887 version. Due to the following.
Photograph taken by Hancock & Williams - Studio at 24 New Cross Road, Deptford.
Partnership between Edward William Wetherstone Hancock & George Goodridge Williams, between 1884 - 1890 - Succeeded by E W W Hancock. 1891 - 1892, continued at 24 New Cross Road, but also appears to have been known also as the Hatcham Park Studio, at during this period.
In 1881 photographer living at living at 13 Rose Alley, Bishopsgate Street Without, City of London.
By 1891 he's living at 168 Ivydale Road, Peckham.
1901 he's living in Headingley with Burley.
Also had a studio at 4 Ethel Villas, Snells Park, Edmonton, but date for this unknown (but listed on back of CDV).
Photograph has 24 New Cross Road as address on front but gives Hatchum Park Studio on rear above the two addresses, suggesting perhaps the 1891-1892 period? Hence why I believe it to be the 1887 medal that is being worn by the Sgt.
What is curious however, is the fact that he has had his picture taken in Deptford as apposed to using a more local photographer to Whitechapel?
Granted the City is only 15 minutes away from Deptford on the train, so it appears that Hancock used to commute? But why Sgt14 traveled there to have his picture taken is anyone's guess. Perhaps he knew Hancock personally, given his City address. Another possibility is that he was a PC in R Division and was promoted to Sgt and posted to H Division and had his picture taken in Deptford with his stripes & new collar number?
With the information available it would suggest that this picture was taken sometime after 1887, between 1891 and 1892? Curious also why he chose to have his picture taken in Deptford, unless Hancock also took pictures at his home address on Rose Alley, but developed them at his Deptford studio?

[The Station Cat]

Old Bailey website gives a PC John NEAL 14H giving evidence for a burglary, 21st September 1868, could this be the same officer pre-promotion, perhaps?


Not sure whether, he'd have been issued a new collar number upon promotion?

[The Station Cat]

From the photograph there is no way of being 100% certain whether this is an 1887 or 1897 Jubilee medal, but given the evidence above, I am inclined to suspect it's the 1887 example.

[The Station Cat]

The rear of the CDV............

[The Station Cat]

Very stern faced fellow, I think you'll agree?

[The Station Cat]

Another of his medal....

[The Station Cat]

If anyone has any way of identifying this chap, I'd very much like to know who he is?

Is this the holy grail of a long thought lost picture of someone famous from the period, or he is an just some who was there at the time?

Or is it in fact just someone who arrived afterwards and took no part in the case at all?


I must say the whole Deptford aspect has me a little confused and the dates of the photo studio would suggest, the picture was taken post 1888, but the H Division collar number, all in all a very curious case, I'm sure you'll agree?

[The Station Cat]

Can he be identified?

Possible candidates for a PS 14H are:

19/04/1890 52745 STONER PS14H To 2HR H
17/06/1892 52745 GEORGE STONER PS2HR H To SPS 79 P


26/04/1887 56240 EDWIN SHOESMITH PC187M To PS 14 H
14/05/1887 56240 EDWIN SHOESMITH PS14H To 12 V
19/07/1897 56240SHOESMITH PS12V PENSIONED


29/12/1894 69042 CHARLES MORGAN PS14H To 3HR H
01/04/1899 69042 CHARLES MORGAN SPS11P To Insp R
03/03/1906 69042 CHARLES MORGAN Insp R To K
25/05/1907 69042 CHARLES MORGAN Insp X PENSIONED

16/04/1903 72818 SMITH PS14H To Gaoler
23/01/1907 72818 SMITH PS14H To SPS Gaoler
28/12/1920 72818 SMITH SPS14H PENSIONED


We can dismiss Shoesmith as he had gone to V Div before he had any medals

We cannot be sure when Stoner and Morgan joined H Div but both would have had an 1887 Medal so if it is not a retirement photo it could be either of those whilst they were in H Div?

Interesting is Smith as he joined just after June 1887 (so no 1887 Medal) and he got both the 1897 and 1902 Medals in H Div as a PS. We don’t have a date when he was PS 14H but if it were before 1902 (which is possible) it could be him wearing just his 1897 Medal?

So we have no positive ID, which is a shame. There is no PS 14H who retired between 1887 and 1897 as that would have been the best bet (ie a retirement photo before leaving).

Also if it is a retirement photo then Smith above virtually rules out any other PS 14H candidate with just an 1897 medal.

On a plus note we can however, be 100% certain that it's not a thought long lost photograph of someone crucial to the case!!

If it is SMITH, then it would be neigh on impossible, to research him any further anyway?

[Robert]

Station, have a look at PS George Stoner. Description 'brown hair, blue eyes, ruddy complexion, stern faced kind of fella."

Transferred to H in 82, then to P in 92. Left in 95.

[Robert]

There were two Charles Morgans leaving in 07. The one who was an Inspector was a PS at H at one time, but it doesn't say when. Also, he resigned May 23rd not 25th.

[Monty]

14H was the Collar No for Inspector Reid's son in law Tommy Smith.

It's not him.

Monty

[The Station Cat]

Station, have a look at PS George Stoner. Description 'brown hair, blue eyes, ruddy complexion, stern faced kind of fella."

Transferred to H in 82, then to P in 92. Left in 95.

Yeh, could be him couldn't it! But if it is him, we've still got the issue of why the photograph was taken in Deptford which is R Division? Such a shame that we'll never really know for sure.

[David Orsam]

From his pension record, George Stoner was transferred from A Division to H Division on 5 August 1882.

From the Times of 17 July 1883:

"The prisoner then tried to strike the husband, and afterwards kicked the woman several times about the head. Inspector Straw, H Division and Police-sergeant Stoner, 14H, came up and took him into custody."

From the Times of 19 December 1888:

"Sergeant Stoneham (sic), 14H, proved a previous conviction against the prisoner and Mr Saunders committed him for trial."

I think it's reasonable to assume that Sgt Stoner and Stoneham are the same person.

But how is that possible, you may ask, bearing in mind that Robert has posted information showing that Sergeant Shoesmith took the number 14H on 26 April 1887?

Well I believe the answer lies in the fact that, on 28 March 1887, Sergeant Stoner was placed on 6 weeks sick leave. He then returned to duty in H Division on 9 May 1887. When Shoesmith transferred out of H Division on 14 May, I reckon that Stoner took his old number back, retaining it until April 1890 (as per Robert's info).

[The Station Cat]

There were two Charles Morgans leaving in 07. The one who was an Inspector was a PS at H at one time, but it doesn't say when. Also, he resigned May 23rd not 25th.

Having chaps with the same name in the same division makes it all the more harder pinning them down from a research point of view doesn't it.

[The Station Cat]

14H was the Collar No for Inspector Reid's son in law Tommy Smith.

It's not him.

Monty

you had me there for a second Neil