True or not ?

[Jon Guy]

Hello

Would Insp Beck have gone to a Ripper murder scene in Dorset St alone ?

My understanding is that Beck was followed to Dorset St by a small army of plain clothes detectives and uniformed coppers.

Two interesting snippets from the Daily News 10th Nov 88:

Inspector Beck and Sergeant Betham, 31 H, who were in charge of about forty constables who had been held in readiness in anticipation of a possible Socialist disturbance attending the Lord Mayor's Show, at once proceeded to the scene of the murder, running to the house as quickly as they could

The scene in the narrow courtway leading to the house was one of extraordinary excitement. The whole space was closely packed with detective officers, and quite a small army of plain clothes constables was located in Dorset street within an astonishingly short space of time. Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon of police, soon arrived

Note that the police were there in force before even Dr Phillips arrived at 11.15am

They needed all hands on deck. Of course Dew was there, and subsequently would have had a gander inside the room.
Sgt Thick had to conduct a sweep through the Dorset St dwellings, Sgt Badham had to put up a cordon at each end of the street.

I bet the only person left back at Commercial St Police Station was Esther Pickles.

Jon

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The description of events relayed by Dew in his book. appear not to coincide with opinions shared by many on Casebook
For instance the word ''youth' plays a role in his book , not only allegedly being the initial person that entered the police station around 11am on the morning of the 9th where an account of his attempt to relay what had happened was recalled, but also Dews recollection of interviewing the 'youth' in Millers court when he had 'calmed' down .
Who was the youth?
Bowyer could never have been described as such by any imagination.
But McCarthys son aged 14 years certainly was, and whats more at the time Bowyer was calling on Kelly[ allegedly to obtain rent?] he and his mother were knocking on the doors of the other residents rent collecting, ie according to a press report.
Why was Bowyer send to room 13, when Mother and son would have sufficed.?
Did McCarthy wish to spare his loved ones from such a ghastly sight, but in that case how would he have known what layed on the bed.?
Or was it the case that Mrs McCarthy was not in the habit of calling at room 13, and that chore was left to Bowyer for some reason?
Or Was it acting on a request from residents who ...according to a report, were concerned as the 'blinds ' were down , and Mary was not apparently around?.
Back to the initial part of this post.
Is it not impossible that after Bowyer found the body, and reported it to his master, MacCarthy sent his son at pace to the station, followed at some distance by the elderly Bowyer.
That would make much more logic, and would account for Dews recollections, which incidently he makes it quite clear in his remark' While memory fades somewhat in all the facts of the Whitechapel murders, events of that morning will remain with me always.'
Could anyone doubt that?
Why was the 'Youth' not mentioned in official papers,simply because he was spared any more trauma, and MacCarthy carried a lot of clout in that area.
Regards Richard.

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy:

"My understanding is that Beck was followed to Dorset St by a small army of plain clothes detectives and uniformed coppers. "

Well, Jon, Dew himself states that the two of them, Beck and him, picked up all the PC:s they could find en route to Miller´s Court. Maybe Esther Pickles was there too, after all!

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

Two interesting snippets from the Daily News 10th Nov 88:

Inspector Beck and Sergeant Betham, 31 H, who were in charge of about forty constables who had been held in readiness in anticipation of a possible Socialist disturbance attending the Lord Mayor's Show, at once proceeded to the scene of the murder, running to the house as quickly as they could

The scene in the narrow courtway leading to the house was one of extraordinary excitement. The whole space was closely packed with detective officers, and quite a small army of plain clothes constables was located in Dorset street within an astonishingly short space of time. Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon of police, soon arrived

Jon

Hi Jon,

and this, again, is quite different from Dew's story.

[Fisherman]

David writes:

"this, again, is quite different from Dew's story."

I´m not sure what you are getting at here, David. This is how Dew depicts it:

" Come along, Dew," said Inspector Beck, and gathering from the terrorized messenger that Dorset Street was the scene of whatever had happened, we made him our pilot, as we rushed in that direction, collecting as many constables as we could on the way.
The youth led us a few yards down Dorset Street from Commercial Street, until we came to a court approached by an arched passage, three feet wide and unlighted, in which there were two entrances to houses which fronted on Dorset Street. The place was known as Miller's Court.
Leaving the constables to block Dorset Street and to prevent anyone from leaving the court itself, Inspector Beck' and I proceeded through the narrow archway into what might be described as a small square."

So, Beck and Dew collected as many constables as they could, and these constables guarded the premises after arriving in Dorset Street. To me, that does not differ much from "The whole space was closely packed with detective officers, and quite a small army of plain clothes constables was located in Dorset street within an astonishingly short space of time." At any rate, I don´t think it is fair to speak of a "quite different" story!

Of course, if you keep looking for the occasional deviation, it will be there. But what´s to be expected from fifty year old reminiscences? I think Dew does a very decent job, and he actually points out himself, that his prime asset as a policeman always was his remarkable memory! Maybe we should applaude all the things he remembered correctly instead of mistrusting him over the small mistakes he makes at 75!

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

Hi Fish,

you're right, although the article quoted by Jon mentions Beck and Badham (and obscure PCs encountered in the street). Once more, no Dew.
Dew's vivid description of him and Beck looking in the room, as if Dew was the most important man to have come along with Beck, is rather inconsistent with the Daily News report, isn't it ?

That said, I have to admit, thanks to Jon's post and your own replies, that Dew was probably present but have subsequently embellished his role.

Regarding Mary Kelly, the details he gives seems to me more fanciful.

Amitiés
David

[Fisherman]

David:

"Once more, no Dew."

No Dew MENTIONED, no - but "the whole space was closely packed with detective officers", NONE of whom are mentioned by name.

"Dew's vivid description of him and Beck looking in the room, as if Dew was the most important man to have come along with Beck, is rather inconsistent with the Daily News report, isn't it ?"

Not inconsistent as such - but yes, one would have thought that SOME corroboration would be there in at least some channel, just as you think, David!

"I have to admit, thanks to Jon's post and your own replies, that Dew was probably present but have subsequently embellished his role."

That´s the station my train arrives at too - since we find no corroboration of Dews claims, it is very tempting to make such a call. To what degree, though, is totally impossible to say. The Swedish author Fritiof Nilsson Piraten once stated that "truth does not come about in the wink of an eye", and that is a wise insight. I think it stands to reason to believe that not a single one of the policemen involved in the hunt diminished his role, whereas quite a few probably spiced things up on their behalf...

The best, David!
Fisherman

[Tecs]

Who was the youth?

Richard,

I was going to post that seeing as how Dew describes Bowyer, who was in his mid sixties at the time, as a "youth" he appears to be guilty of either very bad memory or lying.

McCarthy's story is that he sent Bowyer to the police station, then we pick up Dew's story of the "youth" arriving at the station. I'd never considered that they might be different people and always thought that Dew had made a mistake in describing him as a youth. The fact that Dew says that it was the "youth" that had been sent by McCarthy to find Kelly and had been the one to peer through the broken window surely means that the "youth" in question was Bowyer? In which case, Dew's memory is either faulty, or he is not sure of how old Bowyer was, or at least how old he looked. If he didn't know how old he looked, then that must be because he had never actually met him?

Unless he was just mistaken!

Regards,

[DVV]

Hi Jon, Fish, Tecs

That said, I have to admit, thanks to Jon's post and your own replies, that Dew was probably present but have subsequently embellished his role.

David

Hmmmm, I've just read the thread "What is known about Indian Harry ?" (Witnesses)....and clearly the fact that Dew calls Bowyer a "youth" adds nothing to his credibility.

Jon, in that thread (Indian Harry) you said Dew wasn't there at all....now you've changed your mind...why ?

Amitiés
David

[Jon Guy]

Hi David

I don`t think Dew was at the front desk of Commercial Street Police Station when Bowyer arrived. There would have been a uniformed Sergeant or perhaps Insp Beck himself, manning the desk, and Dew became involved soon after Bowyer`s entrance.

Regarding "the youth". Perhaps, John McCarthy Jnr, aged 14, accompanied Bowyer to the station but arrived before Bowyer. Bowyer was 63 years old and I can`t imagine him hurtling up Commercial St to the Police station.

It doesn`t even have to be McCarthy`s lad, anyone could have latched on to old man Bowyer running out of Dorset street, which would have caught peoples attention. I bet he even told a few people on the way that there had been another murder..."what`s up `arry"...

Jon

[Rubyretro]

This is all very believable, Jon..

[DVV]

Not sure.

Dew is undoubtedly describing a man upset by the vision of MK's room.
I don't think either a youth of 14 would be called "a young fellow"...(and nobody has ever mentioned a youth of 14 at the station).

I'd like to point out that Dew didn't write "from memory" only. Far from it. He obviously used other sources (indeed, how could he remember Mrs Mortimer, or Nichols "last joke" ?).

I don't buy either him knowing Kelly "well by sight", while other police far more acquainted with the area apparently did not : remember Dew wasn't transferred to H Division before 1887.

Amitiés
David

[Tecs]

I think that the bit he put in about Mary discussing the night before she died that she was so frightened of something bad happening to her, that she was going to leave London says everything about his memoirs. Not exactly outright lies, but exaggerations and embellishments in order to make the story more interesting.

If Dew tells a story and it can be backed up by another source then it's probably true. If not then we have to take with a pinch of salt.

Regards,

[niko]

True or not true.

Hi everyone, forgive me if I'm in the wrong thread, I don't know where to post this. There's be somthing bugging me for year's and would like to know if is "true or not true".

My mother had a friend who lived in Poplar ( this was in the mid seventy's) her son Jack ( yes his name was Jack) was training to become a Metropolitan police officer. I remember him telling me the strangest thing, Jack said that if he became a Police officer he would be forbiden to talk about "Jack the ripper"

"true or not true"


He also told me he did'nt pass to become a Police officer because of "one" question. He was asked that if he had to arrest his mother would he do so ? he answered "NO" he would not arrest his mother, and due to this he did not enter the Metopolitan Police Force.

"true or not true"

I would truely like to know the truth, all the best, Agur.

niko