"Mary Kelly in Mitre Square"

[DVV]

According to Superintendent Arnold, JtR had 4 victims only:

"I still hold to the opinion that not more than 4 of those murders were committed by the same hand. They were the murders of Annie Chapman in Hanbury Street, Mrs Nicholls in Buck's Row, Elizabeth Stride in Berner Street, and Mary Kelly in Mitre Square."

Who was then the last victim, in his opinion ?

Sugden thinks it was Mary Kelly, and that Arnold was "influenced by the views of Dr Phillips" (who was vaguely inclined to discount Eddowes as a JtR victim).

SPE and Donald Rumbelow, on the contrary, suggest it was Eddowes, given she "gave her name to the police as Mary Ann Kelly so we must assume that Arnold does not mean Mary Jane Kelly, the Dorset Street victim."

As I view it, Sugden might be right. I don't think any official at the time had discounted Mary Kelly.

I would add (to Sugden's point about Phillips' possible influence) that Arnold was the one who ordered the GSG to be erased... Excluding Eddowes from the frame would thus minimize what could have been a great mistake on his behalf.

What do you think...?

Amitiés all,
David

[DVV]

...Should also add I find unlikely that, 5 years after the events, Arnold would have been mistaken by the name Eddowes gave to Hutt when in custody...

[tnb]

one point in SPE and Rumbelow's favour, to my mind, is that for the 'he meant MJK' scenario you have one piece of correct info (her name) but another (Mitre Sq) completely erroneous, whereas with 'he meant Eddowes' you have*one 100 percent correct*(Mitre*Sq) and*one, while*incorrect, at*least*eminating*from*a*known*source*(the*pawn*t icket*and/or*name*given*to the Bishopsgate*police).

I do take your point about the confusion being unlikely though, given the time elapsed ,but then again it pales into insignificance when compared with the whole kosminsi-kaminski-marginalia debate!

Would Arnold not have consulted the official documents before writing such a report, especially if he felt he was not clear on a name and/or location? I am not for a second suggesting that somewhere there is a document stating MJK was killed in Mitre Sq (the mind boggles at the possible, ahem, opinions that may bring out!) but simply that this mistake,and whichever way round it came about, displays a frankly breathtaking laxness on Arnold's part. Which in my opinion mitigates giving his statement on the number of victims much credence, if he couldn't even remember their names properly!

I personally also find it hard to believe that even at the time any investigator would have accepted Stride as a 'Ripper' victim, but not Eddowes, but that is just my opinion.

Stride, Eddowes, the Graffito and the Apron...so many contentious issues about this case are centred on the 'Double Event'; and I believe a large part of that is down to no great mystery other than an unforgivable lack of communication between the Met and the City forces. SPE would*not*thank*me*for*saying*this*but*I would add in the whole Stephen White controversy as also symptomatic of this confusion - again we have a confusion of locations (whether or not you believe the sighting took place, the location referred to as Mitre Sq is clearly muddled with a.n.other) and possibly chronology (if, like me, you believe it is possible the sighting DID take place, but by a different officer, and thus in being erroneously attributed to Sgt White it becomes attributed to the murder scene at which he was present). Again, it is this same murder night which seems to collect these inconsistencies...

[DVV]

Hi TNB

I personally also find it hard to believe that even at the time any investigator would have accepted Stride as a 'Ripper' victim, but not Eddowes, but that is just my opinion.

Indeed, but still it is clear that Arnold had no doubt re Stride's canonicity.

Stride, Eddowes, the Graffito and the Apron...

That's the very point I tried to make, given Arnold's responsability for the Goulston Street's disaster...

So at last, TNB, would you follow Sugden or Evans/Rumbelow ?

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello all,

Here's my two cents. The medical opinion at the time was that Eddowes was a crude imitation of Chapman and thus not a Ripper victim. Dr. Phillips and his assistant, Percy Clark, were convinced Mary Kelly was a true Ripper victim. Arnold was probably influenced by the medical opinion in the case and excluded Eddowes as a Ripper victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

Ok Tom,

but I just can baulk at the fact that Arnold, the only official to attribute 4 murders to JtR, advised Warren to have the GSG erased.

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

Advised him to or was willing to do so in Warren's absence?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

He advised Warren to erase the GSG with his moustache.
Got this overlooked detail from your friend Karen, I confess.


Amitiés,
David

[tnb]

DVV-

If I had to nail my colours to the mast, I would opt for SPE/Rumbelow, for the reasons I outlined in my earlier post - mainly that it makes the least leaps of faith, ie we can account for where both the details (name/location) come from.

Re. Stride, I am aware that Arnold was in no doubt about her candidacy - and while I reserve the right to have some doubts about the merits of his opinions, that is exactly my point. I said that I find it hard to believe any investigator would include Stride but exclude Eddowes - as you say we have no doubt he included the former so by my logic I suggest that is another point towards his meaning to include Eddowes, not MJK.

Great thread, great debate!

[Sox]

Actually 'a' Mary Kelly, was killed in Mitre Square. It is reasonable to assume that he could well have omitted the Millers Court murder from his list, as we all know, Eddowes gave her name as Mary Kelly. I suppose it all depends what Arnolds mindset was when he wrote that.

[DVV]

Actually 'a' Mary Kelly, was killed in Mitre Square. It is reasonable to assume that he could well have omitted the Millers Court murder from his list, as we all know, Eddowes gave her name as Mary Kelly.

Hi Sox,

that's of course a possibility, and it's the reasoning of Evans/Rumbelow.
But I find unlikely that Arnold, in 1893, would have remembered the Mitre Square victim as "Mary Ann Kelly".
I do not see either any official discounting the "real" Mary Kelly.

All in all, Phillips' influence + Arnold's responsability in Goulston Street seem to me more significant than the name Eddowes gave in custody.

Amitiés,
David

[Monty]

Kelly differs far more from the others of Nichols and Chapman than Eddowes does.

Infact, Eddowes and Chapman are probably the closest linked in my opinion.

If Arnold is referring to Eddowes then I say he was grossly misinformed.

Monty

[DVV]

Yes Monty,

I'm pretty sure he was referring to Kelly, but still bearing in mind his responsability in the GSG erasure, he made a freudian slip.

Amitiés,
David