Tumblety's Past; not Tumblety Today - Andrews' True Agenda

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Stewart.

Surely you have got that wrong? Anderson tried to discourage Le Caron from appearing before the Commission, only facilitating him when Le Caron insisted on appearing.

You’re absolutely right. I think I was confusing the pressure put on General Millen with Beach. Especially since Beach is not quite clear on the whole thing. On the one hand he states that Anderson didn’t want him to appear as a witness (thus killing the goose who laid the golden eggs) and on the other that Anderson had summoned him to his house, while he was in England for the funeral of his father, in order to tell him that the Times was looking for someone to testify at the Commission. This seems to have been a fishing expedition on Anderson’s part and whether he was gauging Beach’s reaction to the information or telling him to find someone appropriate is not clear to me.

Mike.

No, I am not saying this and it does require a reading of Roger Palmer's article. Anderson's articles certianly did involve his Irish nationalist feelings, but in Anderson's own words, he justified doing it in order to stop anti-terrorist activities. This is completely different than employing Scotland Yard officials for a political agenda involving Parnell.

The thing you fail to understand is that Anderson offered his services to the Times and then wrote his articles expressly with a political agenda involving Parnell in mind. His explanation, given in 1910, and containing several self-serving lies, that he wrote for the Times in order to stop anti-terrorist activities was just an attempt at deflecting the storm of outrage the information that he had written the articles had caused. Anderson wrote the articles with one thing in mind, help the Times to defeat Parnell and the Irish Nationalist movement.

“...Even if Warren was kept in the dark by his subordinate, do you really think Warren would allow a valuable inspector help out the Canadians with an extradition when they were already stretched thin with the JTR murders? I could see Warren saying, "Barnett who?" More pressure was on Warren for the JTR case, as evidence by his resignation. Because of this, it seems more plausible that Warren would allow a valuable inspector to go to Canada for the JTR case, if they believed they were onto something.

It’s almost as if you think that every policeman in the entire city of London was involved in the Whitechapel Murders investigation at the expense of all other crimes and duties. This is ridiculous. In 1894 Inspector Littlechild, writing in his memoirs, mentioned three matters which were of “great importance” to Scotland Yard. One was the Great Turf Frauds of 1876, another was the Whitechapel Murders and the third, surprise, surprise, was the Fenian dynamite campaigns. If you don’t think long time anti-Irish Nationalists and spy masters like Monro and Anderson would do anything in their power to cripple or destroy the Irish movement then you obviously need to do a lot more reading on the subject.

Since we now know that Anderson was soliciting information on Tumblety from police chiefs in Brooklyn and San Francisco at the same time, it demonstates Anderson certianly was interested in North American issues dealing with the JTR case.

Actually, it is fairly clear that information provided by San Francisco was not solicited by Anderson but offered by Chief Crowley. Yes, I did read part 2 of Palmer’s article but his “evidence” to dispute this fact is laughable. However, your point is well taken that Anderson certainly was interested in Tumblety as a suspect and did contact the Brooklyn and New York Police about him. The interesting thing, though, is that the heads of both police forces knew Tumblety and both laughed at the suggestion that he might have been the Ripper (I’m sure these valuable police opinions regarding Tumblety appear in part 3 of Mr. Palmer’s article).

“...Since we now know that Francis Tumblety sailed to London FROM Toronto, Canada, in the spring of 1888, it would be clearly logical that Scotland Yard send a man to Toronto, Canada, on any issue dealing with Francis Tumblety (especially since we now know Tumblety regularly frequented Toronto in the 1870s and 1880s).

I’ve already dealt with this absurd impossibility in the Whitechapel Journal thread.

Wolf.

[Jonathan H]

Palmer's Trilogy

I was very privileged to see R J Palmer's trilogy before publication, and made a small [too-generously credited] contribution to the proofiing of the texts.

Quite frankly, I find these pieces to be some of the best historical writing this sub-genre has ever produced -- and so entertaining!

Apart from being page-turners, it is the standard of the historical analyses which is so high; they are decisive without being absolutist, persuasive yet without rancour. It also ends with a poignant coda, one which is unexpectedly moving.

The Inspector Andrews essays also bring a level of political sophistication to the Ripper mystery, which has been somewhat lacking in some other accounts.

I just wish Palmer would write a complete book on Jack the Ripper, focussing on the enigmatic figure of Dr Tumblety, who is -- in my mind -- clearly the chief police suspect of 1888, at least.

[Stewart P Evans]

Wrong?

And allow me to add that Anderson was still Henri La Caron's (the British double agent working deep undercover within the Fenian movement in North America) handler right up until Anderson was able to persuade La Caron to step up and give evidence before the Parnell Commission.
...
Wolf.

Surely you have got that wrong? Anderson tried to discourage Le Caron from appearing before the Commission, only facilitating him when Le Caron insisted on appearing.

[mklhawley]

“while he was working at the Met with James Monro. It is interesting to point out that Monro’s responsibilities would have been against any act of terrorism, such as the Jubilee Plot of 1877, but not against a political issue such as the Home Rule/Parnell issue. Anderson claimed his letters were to spoil anti-terrorism plots and not political issues. Notice how this better conforms to Monro’s and Anderson’s responsibilities.”

I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying here, or how, or if, it pertains somehow to Palmer’s article (which I have not read). It appears as if you are saying that Anderson’s article published in the Times was not connected to his anti Irish nationalist/Parnell feelings or, perhaps, that it wasn’t illegal for him to write for the Times. You may want to look more closely at the storm of reaction created when it was learned that Anderson had indeed authored Behind the Scenes in America. Had it been disclosed at the time it probably would have led to his immediate dismissal and possibly the fall of the Government.

No, I am not saying this and it does require a reading of Roger Palmer's article. Anderson's articles certianly did involve his Irish nationalist feelings, but in Anderson's own words, he justified doing it in order to stop anti-terrorist activities. This is completely different than employing Scotland Yard officials for a political agenda involving Parnell.

“Charles Warren bitterly fought against Monro’s anti-Fenian work, which conflicts with your theory.”

This is a ridiculous statement. Monro bitterly fought against Warren for control of the CID, which Monro felt should have autonomy from Warren’s control as Commissioner. Warren didn’t support Fenian terrorism nor was he against tracking, arresting or stopping Fenians, which was Monro’s job.

So, are you trying to say that Warren would support the recruitement of Scotland Yard officials for a political agenda (Parnell), an illegal act?

I don’t think that Warren knew anything about what Andrews was really doing in Southern Ontario, he didn’t need to. Whatever Anderson was up to it started at the time that Roland Gideon Israel Barnett’s extradition to Toronto was granted, if not when Andrews arrested Barnett right after his appearance in Wandsworth Police Court on the 13th of September. All that Warren needed to be told was that a prisoner wanted in Toronto needed to be sent to Canada as quickly as possible or else the extradition order would run out, therefore a Scotland Yard officer would have to escort him.

Warren didn’t have to be told that the extradition was actually granted on the 6th of November, yet, strangely, no one had bothered to inform the Toronto Police or the Canadian authorities; or that, oddly, Anderson knew all about Barnett’s extradition yet didn’t bother to contact Toronto but, instead, contacted the British Secretary of State. Also, Warren didn’t have to be told that even though there was plenty of time for Toronto to send someone to pick up Barnett, which was the usual procedure, Anderson instead suggested that he send a picked Scotland Yard man to deliver the prisoner. Nor did Warren need to know that although the Toronto authorities agreed to Anderson’s plan, Anderson, inexplicably, failed to get back to the Canadians until it was absolutely too late for them to change their minds. All that Warren needed to know was that he should send a terse telegram to Toronto informing them that Andrews was coming.

Although Andrews trip was arraigned through “Official Channels” the full story wasn’t told.

Wolf.

What do you mean that Warren didn't need to know, especially when it was unusual for a Scotland Yard official to excort a prisoner. Warren was ultimately responsible, since he did not leave his position until December 1, 1888. Even if Warren was kept in the dark by his subordinate, do you really think Warren would allow a valuable inspector help out the Canadians with an extradition when they were already stretched thin with the JTR murders? I could see Warren saying, "Barnett who?" More pressure was on Warren for the JTR case, as evidence by his resignation. Because of this, it seems more plausible that Warren would allow a valuable inspector to go to Canada for the JTR case, if they believed they were onto something.

Since we now know that Anderson was soliciting information on Tumblety from police chiefs in Brooklyn and San Francisco at the same time, it demonstates Anderson certianly was interested in North American issues dealing with the JTR case.

...Since we now know that Francis Tumblety sailed to London FROM Toronto, Canada, in the spring of 1888, it would be clearly logical that Scotland Yard send a man to Toronto, Canada, on any issue dealing with Francis Tumblety (especially since we now know Tumblety regularly frequented Toronto in the 1870s and 1880s).

Sincerely,

Mike

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

“…while he was working at the Met with James Monro. It is interesting to point out that Monro’s responsibilities would have been against any act of terrorism, such as the Jubilee Plot of 1877, but not against a political issue such as the Home Rule/Parnell issue. Anderson claimed his letters were to spoil anti-terrorism plots and not political issues. Notice how this better conforms to Monro’s and Anderson’s responsibilities.”

I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying here, or how, or if, it pertains somehow to Palmer’s article (which I have not read). It appears as if you are saying that Anderson’s article published in the Times was not connected to his anti Irish nationalist/Parnell feelings or, perhaps, that it wasn’t illegal for him to write for the Times. You may want to look more closely at the storm of reaction created when it was learned that Anderson had indeed authored Behind the Scenes in America. Had it been disclosed at the time it probably would have led to his immediate dismissal and possibly the fall of the Government.

“Charles Warren bitterly fought against Monro’s anti-Fenian work, which conflicts with your theory.”

This is a ridiculous statement. Monro bitterly fought against Warren for control of the CID, which Monro felt should have autonomy from Warren’s control as Commissioner. Warren didn’t support Fenian terrorism nor was he against tracking, arresting or stopping Fenians, which was Monro’s job.

I don’t think that Warren knew anything about what Andrews was really doing in Southern Ontario, he didn’t need to. Whatever Anderson was up to it started at the time that Roland Gideon Israel Barnett’s extradition to Toronto was granted, if not when Andrews arrested Barnett right after his appearance in Wandsworth Police Court on the 13th of September. All that Warren needed to be told was that a prisoner wanted in Toronto needed to be sent to Canada as quickly as possible or else the extradition order would run out, therefore a Scotland Yard officer would have to escort him.

Warren didn’t have to be told that the extradition was actually granted on the 6th of November, yet, strangely, no one had bothered to inform the Toronto Police or the Canadian authorities; or that, oddly, Anderson knew all about Barnett’s extradition yet didn’t bother to contact Toronto but, instead, contacted the British Secretary of State. Also, Warren didn’t have to be told that even though there was plenty of time for Toronto to send someone to pick up Barnett, which was the usual procedure, Anderson instead suggested that he send a picked Scotland Yard man to deliver the prisoner. Nor did Warren need to know that although the Toronto authorities agreed to Anderson’s plan, Anderson, inexplicably, failed to get back to the Canadians until it was absolutely too late for them to change their minds. All that Warren needed to know was that he should send a terse telegram to Toronto informing them that Andrews was coming.

Although Andrews trip was arraigned through “Official Channels” the full story wasn’t told.

Wolf.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

Anderson may well have been relieved in 1884 "entirely for the present of all my responsibilities & duties relative to Fenianism in London", but the key words to bear in mind are "for the present". In that year Anderson was Secretary to the Royal Commission on Merchant Shipping; later he was Secretary to the Prison Commissioners. In February 1887 Monro's Section D was formed, paid entirely from Imperial Funds. Shortly afterwards Anderson was employed by Monro as "an agent" in secret work at the Home Office and, coincidentally, in May and June of that year his three "Behind the Scenes in America" articles, which Monro denied authorising, appeared in The Times. But throughout all this time, right up until Le Caron's 1888 Special Commission appearance, Anderson remained the spy's handler.

The source of Anderson's paycheck is therefore very important, for it gives us the best clue to his responsibilities, most of which were off the radar if it had ever come to parliamentary scrutiny. It wasn't until August 1888 that his salary was switched to Police Funds, a matter which caused him great consternation regarding continuity of pension.

The very public post of Assistant Commissioner CID at Scotland Yard was also a matter of some consternation for Anderson, for there was still a lot of work to be done in preparation for Le Caron's forthcoming appearance at the Parnell Special Commission.

And so, "I told Mr. Matthews, greatly to his distress, that I could not take up my new duties until I had had a month's holiday in Switzerland."

Where he actually went is a story for another day.

Regards,

Simon

[mklhawley]

And allow me to add that Anderson was still Henri La Caron's (the British double agent working deep undercover within the Fenian movement in North America) handler right up until Anderson was able to persuade La Caron to step up and give evidence before the Parnell Commission.

The fact you have failed to understand is that just because Anderson may not have been working on Fenian activities in London (which was seen as a seperate issue), he was still greatly involved in monitoring Fenian activities everywhere else. Especially in North America where he sent Andrews.

Wolf.

Since the request for Andrews' North American mission went through official channels, Warren must have approved of Anderson's request, not Monro. Is this what you are saying?

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

And allow me to add that Anderson was still Henri La Caron's (the British double agent working deep undercover within the Fenian movement in North America) handler right up until Anderson was able to persuade La Caron to step up and give evidence before the Parnell Commission.

The fact you have failed to understand is that just because Anderson may not have been working on Fenian activities in London (which was seen as a seperate issue), he was still greatly involved in monitoring Fenian activities everywhere else. Especially in North America where he sent Andrews.

Wolf.

[mklhawley]

Dear Madam Arcati,

As you appear to have become the earthly conduit through which all Olympian Tumblety wisdom is handed down to us lesser mortals, would it be too much to ask that you slip into a light trance, make contact with Roger Palmer and point out to him that Robert Anderson was being paid out of Imperial Funds right up until his 1888 appointment as Assistant Commissioner, Metropolitan Police.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

I am not in correspondence with Roger and have merely read his article. His article states that Anderson was relieved of ‘responsibilities and duties relative to Fenianism in London.’ (source: Bernard Porter, The Origins of the Vigilant State (1987)). The source of his paycheck seems not to be the issue but his responsibilities, unless Porter is wrong.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Dear Madam Arcati,

As you appear to have become the earthly conduit through which all Olympian Tumblety wisdom is handed down to us lesser mortals, would it be too much to ask that you slip into a light trance, make contact with Roger Palmer and point out to him that Robert Anderson was being paid out of Imperial Funds right up until his 1888 appointment as Assistant Commissioner, Metropolitan Police.

Regards,

Simon

[mklhawley]

I would like to revisit Inspector Andrew's North American visit following the publication of Roger Palmer's part III by replying to a few of Wolf's earlier comments:

Do you even understand that this statement is the equivalent of you shooting yourself in the foot? Apparently not.

Robert Anderson started his official life at Dublin Castle investigating Irish Nationalist and Fenian activities.
He was the spymaster who handled Thomas Billis Beach (Henri Le Caron) the British agent who infiltrated Ultra Irish Nationalist and Fenian groups in the US.
Anderson was brought to London in 1867 to continue his secret work against Irish Nationalist and Fenians, a job he did, clandestinely, until 1888, when he became Assistant Commissioner CID at Scotland Yard.

Incorrect. As Roger Palmer has discovered, Anderson was relieved of all responsibilities and duties relative to Fenianism in London on May 8, 1884. In May of 1887, Monro employed him at the Home Office on May 1887 when the “Parnellism and Crime” series was produced.

In 1887 it was Anderson who wrote a series of articles for the London Times entitled “Behind the Scenes in America,” which were published as part of the “Parnellism and Crime” series, which attempted to prove that Charles Stewart Parnell and the Irish Party were supporters of terrorism (Anderson was so chummy with the London paper that Sir Henry Mathews once described him as “a tout for the Times”).

…while he was working at the Met with James Monro. It is interesting to point out that Monro’s responsibilities would have been against any act of terrorism, such as the Jubilee Plot of 1877, but not against a political issue such as the Home Rule/Parnell issue. Anderson claimed his letters were to spoil anti-terrorism plots and not political issues. Notice how this better conforms to Monro’s and Anderson’s responsibilities.

After the resignation of Sir Charles Warren, James Monro, the head of Irish intelligence as it pertained to London, and the head of Special Branch, which worked against Irish Nationalists and Fenians, and Robert Andersons’ close personal friend, became Commissioner of Police. It was at this time that Inspector Andrews, with his “close professional relationship” to spymaster Anderson (who had spent the last 25 years of his life working against Irish Nationalism and only a little over a month at Scotland Yard) was sent on a secret mission to Southern Ontario. A trip where he is reported to have had secret meetings with several men who, it appears, were gathering information against Parnell and the Irish cause.

You would be better served by suggesting Andrews didn’t know Anderson from Adam. Wolf.

As we now know, James Monro did not have the authority to send anyone to Southern Ontario, because Charles Warren was still in charge when Andrews’ trip was set up. Charles Warren bitterly fought against Monro’s anti-Fenian work, which conflicts with your theory.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

Thanks. That actually makes more sense.

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

Yes, it is incorrect.

Jarvis had nothing to do with Barton's arrest, a fact he swore to on oath in a court of law.

Regards,

Simon

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

In a word, no.

At the risk of being immodest, my article in Ripperologist 106 should answer most of your questions. And any gaps in my narrative will soon be filled.

Regards,

Simon

I'm sure, but I'm having difficulty getting your article. This 1889 article claims Jarvis was at the arrest. Is this incorrect?

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

In a word, no.

At the risk of being immodest, my article in Ripperologist 106 should answer most of your questions. And any gaps in my narrative will soon be filled.

Regards,

Simon