Did Anderson Know

[Natalie Severn]

Night night you lovely people

[Simon Wood]

Sleep warm and dream coloured dreams wherever you may be.

[DVV]

"Night night" you said??!!
How possible?
New English for me! And just like Amharic!
In Amharic (official Eth. language), "Ihud ihud" means: every sunday, "mata mata": every evening...and so on...
You are great! And I love you just as my (best) friend Simon!
Remember this "mata mata"!

[DVV]

Hi Colin,
please, give us back Drogba for free (or 4 pence)!

[Jeff Leahy]

The suggestion is, Jason, that Paul Begg and I are refusing to acknowledge historical evidence that challenges our earlier carefully evaluated conclusions, and that we claim Anderson as an unimpeachable witness. It is quite untrue. From the time I first pointed out the importance of Anderson I stressed that he was always bigoted and might have been wrong - a position from which I have never deviated. Let me add that I am quite sure he would cling to a wrong idea long after other people had shown it to be wrong. (A late Victorian police habit, demonstrated lamentably in the Harriet Buswell case, where they continued to believe in the guilt of a German ship's chaplain after a hotel-full of witnesses had proved that he was in bed with flu at the time she was murdered, and the Foreign Office had apologized to the Kaiser for the harrassment of one of his subjects). People who purport to correct Paul and me with new material almost invariably turn out to have studied nothing about Anderson's life as an active (and eccentric) practising Christian and amateur theologian. His work is still studied and respected by some Protestant scholars (though I might add that I do not respect it!). I think I am the only person working on the Ripper to have spoken with Anderson's granddaughter about him. And as far as I know I have made a more detailed study of his involvement in anti-Fenian activities than anyone else. Has anybody else looked at the papers dealing with his intelligence on the Fenian plot to invade Canada? Or the Home Office files grumbling about his publishing officially gained information before his retirement? And from all this detailed study, I reiterate positively that although all men are liars, Anderson was unquestionably saying something he believed to be true when he said that Jack the Ripper had been identified. The observation in the A to Z which Stewart quotes disparagingly is a necessary corrective to the appallingly misleading suggestion that Anderson might have been making up his claim or inventing his witness. His claim may have been wrong and his witness unreliable, but this was not a fantasist's boast or a geriatric's misrecollection. Anderson just wasn't that sort of man.
As for the PMG interview, look carefully at the wording: "our failure to find". I don't deny that it could mean Anderson still had no positive conclusion in November 1889, and instantly concede that this would rule out David Cohen (who, I believe, is far more likely than Kosminski to have been Anderson's supect - and again, I note that my conclusions are being challenged by people who have not undertaken the necessary scholarly re-checking of my original work in tracing all Jewish patients in London asylums between 1888 and 1890 and all deaths of Kosminskis, Kosminskys and Kaminskys registered between 1888 and 1960 before I reached the conclusion that Cohen is the only patient who fits Anderson's account. To dismiss my arguments opponents depend instead on logic-chopping.) The PMG article would not, however, rule out Kosminski if he were indentified in the asylum after November 1891 (which I deem possible, but extremely unlikely). But the words "failure to find" uttered in an interview might only mean 'failure to arrest and bring to trial'. I am not suggesting that this was necessarily the case: I am happy to agree that the wording in the letter like the very important suggestion that Mr Lawende was used again in the Grainger case - (I am writing hastily from memory, and beg your forgiveness if I've got the name wrong in the later case in which the witness who has supposedly seen the Ripper was pulled out again) - casts reasonable doubt on Anderson's conclusion, though Anderson would certainly have known if this was the case, and it clearly had not altered his conclusion by 1901 or 1910. But I have myself suffered from incautioiusly worded responses to inteviewers which have resulted in my being quoted (accurately) as saying something definitely untrue when the words are taken precisely and literally, without regard to hyperbole or casual approximation to the real meaning. Let me point out, loudly and clearly, that despite the necessary vaunting in my first book on the Ripper - (publishers expect you to declare that you've found him, and as a matter of fact, I was then quite sure I had) - I would go no further now than to say decisively that David Cohen is the most plausible suspect ever named (a conclusion endorsed by Dr John Douglas, former head of the FBI offender profiling unit, and the late Dr William Eckert, founder of the Milton Helpern Institute for Forensic Science.)
As for the suggestion that the Swanson marginalia might have been forged or doctored, it is unbelievable poppycock. There are, of course, huge questions about them - notably, why do they get such a blatant fact as the death of Kosminsky wrong? But they are indubitably genuine and indubitably in Swanson's hand, whether or not he wrote the on-page marginalia and the endpaper notes at the same time or with the same pencil. To suggest tampering by anyone in whose hands they had been is as ridiculous as to suggest that the Tumblety letter is a forgery perpetrated by someone who didn't know how to find a buyer for Sims' correspondence until he had the brilliant idea of adding a spurious Ripper-related letter, so that they ultimately wound up in Stewart's possession. Nobody with any scholarly training could doubt for a moment that the Swanson marginalia are genuine, especially if they had met and talked with Jim Swanson and looked at other Swanson documents in his possession (and the interesting notes identifying Macnaghtenas the officer who vexed Anderson to the point that he threw a threatenng letter on the fire). I am astounded that this nonsense is still current, and fear that "new readers" are being confronted with a 'controversy' as hopelessly unreal as the suggestion that species did not evolve or Bacon wrote Shakespeare.
Martin Fido

Hello Martin

As knowone else seems to have done so, I'd just like to thank you for taking the trouble to post on the subject of Anderson.

It seems to me that to often the JtR case is discussed in terms of the modern mind set, and not placed in its historical perspective, so the opinion of a learned historian on the subject is at least appreciated by some.

I'm afraid I do not support your conclusions on Cohen but do believe that work currently being done by researchers such as Rob and Philip on Kosminski are at present the most exciting new perspective on the Jack the Ripper case.

There is however a debate that needs to be made, given that the information given by MacNaughten, Swanson and Anderson (as you have always pointed out) contains contradictions and errors.

I therefore believe that Stewart is correct to raise observations that may contradict the accepted perspective of Andersons accertation 'that the identity of the killer was known'.

That said, I have always personally believed your accessment of Anderson's Character is the most accurate accessment of the man. (and as I have a family connection to Parnell I have every personal reason to disagree)

I'm hoping that you will continue to contribute on the subject..

Personally i'd much rather spend all day listening to you, Paul Begg, Stewart and Don, discussing Anderson than almost anything else i can think of (yes that is how old I'm getting?)

So many thanks for your input and taking the time and trouble to post.

I'm hoping that perhaps you and Stewart could discuss some of the debates on this thread sencibly as the rest of us have lots to learn. And would enjoy such a debate...

Yours Jeff

PS I beleive the opening question was did Anderson Fabricate the eyewitness and was the Swanson marginalia a forgery?

As i dont beleive anyone in there right mind is arguing the Marginalia is a forgery it would be interesting to continue the debate on whether Anderson could have fabricated...

As a Parnell, it appears he could...but would he have done so about Kosminski?

Thank you Martin I'm a big fan..

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Indemin ameshu,

Tell me, why are you interested in Jack the Ripper in Addis Ababa?

Ameseginalehu,

Simon

[DVV]

Gwäbäz, indeed - though it's a little bit to dark for "Ameshu"- evening.
Now it's dark and really dark!
Tell me if you have friend there and if you want me to let them a message.
And, God willing, one day we will eat raw meat together! With Tejj, of course, unless you prefer local beer.
You're really nice Simon, I will show your post to my friends in 5 kilo.

[Simon Wood]

You must teach me Gwäbäz.

Tejj sounds horrible. What is it? I think I will drink the local beer.

Simon

[DVV]

Gwäbäz, indeed - though it's a little bit to dark for "Ameshu"- evening.
Now it's dark and really dark!
Tell me if you have friend there and if you want me to let them a message.
And, God willing, one day we will eat raw meat together! With Tejj, of course, unless you prefer local beer.
You're really nice Simon, I will show your post to my friends in 5 kilo.

O'right Si,
now I answer your question (somehow).
Last winter, I got a contract from university, embassy, menemen, for 4 months.
My wife stayed in France.
I took some DVD with me: Unforgiven(Clint) and some others, including From Hell. And I watched the latter, one time, 2 tmes...etc...up to ...I don't know, but really many times. When in Paris, in the train station, I bought Cornwell, read it, and , childishly, felt like somebody was insulting me...
Back in Provence, the frustration kept working... I discovered this site, ordered from amazon Begg, Sugden, Knight, etc...
The first that came was Begg, The Facts - you can't imagine my pleasure when, after reading cover page 4, I understood it was serious....and now I'm talking with you...
So how can I disconnect Jack from Ethiopia?
Just like my wife, he came from there!!!

[DVV]

You must teach me Gwäbäz.

Tejj sounds horrible. What is it? I think I will drink the local beer.

Simon

Si,
Gwäbäz (or Gobäz) means "strong", "clever", "fast".
And no, don't blaspheme, please: tejj is the best drink I know (and I know a lot): it's sweet like a fruit juice, but merciless like mezcal. You can call it "hydromel" (that is it ), but nothing to compare with the hydromel we know (it's more like an hydroplane...).

Amitiés,
Dawit (yä Salomon abbat)

[Jeff Leahy]

"MacNaughtons rejection of kosminski seems a crucial factor in any assessement of the tales varacity"..BEGG the FACTS.."On the other hand, what possible advantage could Anderson hoped to achieve by inventing a story that he knew his colleagues and the senoir press knew to be untrue? And why didnt people MacNaughten state with well-chosen words in their own memoirs that Anderson was lying or exaggerating or wandering in his mind?

This especially applies to Swanson, who certainly held Anderson in the highest regard, but had no reason to accept uncritically such a story-let alone accept it with a tacit endorsement-in pencilled jottings intended for no eyes but his own".

Any sensible comments?

Pirate

[Roy Corduroy]

Sensible comments? Yes certainly, Pirate Jack.

Martin, when you speak of the new people being swayed by the criticism, I feel like you are speakng directly to me and some of the others here. Not to worry. I have said it before and I will say it again, I respect anyone will carry that eight hundred pound gorilla "Jack the Ripper" out on a limb and just go ahead and name somebody. Based on the years of research necessary to do so.

With a chuckle I say, no, I don't believe Bacon wrote Shakespeare. We had that book in an antique bookshelf my grandmother left us. The Great Cryptograms. Did I read it all and understand it? Well, not really. Much preferred Collier's Photographic History of WW II.

My reservation with the Polish Jew theory is, in fact, it's complexity. There are a lot of hoops to jump through, much like the Great Cryptogram. But do I dismiss it? No, not at all.

The criticism is intense sometimes for those of you who name a suspect, but if you couldn't take the heat, then why bother? Likewise if I had to study this case and not consider any suspects, well, I would rather go back and read that old Bacon.

Roy

[Septic Blue]

Scholarly !!!

Nobody with any scholarly training could doubt for a moment that the Swanson marginalia are genuine, ...

What exactly is "scholarly training" ???

It must be quite precious, as Mr. Fido suggested in a recent episode of "Rippercast" ("The Ripper Scribes": 30-6-08) that he was "one of the few people who has been in this field with historical 'scholarly training'".

Hmmmmm !!!

Where can I get some "scholarly training"; or perhaps some "scholarly" examples to follow ???

"The Crimes, Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper", by Martin Fido
1993 Barnes & Noble Books

pg. 16:
"Monday 6 August 1888, and Martha Tabram, a fat prostitute in her late thirties, ..."

Again:
"a fat prostitute …"

Scholarly !!!


pg. 16:
"Complicated lists of nicknames, aliases and 'marital' names adopted from successions of common-law husbands abounded among the Whitechapel whores, ..."

Again:
"among the Whitechapel whores, …"

Scholarly !!!


pg. 216:
"Infection with syphilis proved an active sex-life among the local prostitutes: its incubation period is short, and local Jewish girls were totally implausible carriers."

Again:
"Infection with syphilis proved an active sex-life among the local prostitutes:…" (my emphasis)

Scholarly !!!


pg. 216:
"But it was when I found Black Lion Yard that I was sure I had found Jack the Ripper. This ran between Old Montague Street and … It was almost exactly at the centre point of the five murders."

Again:
"But it was when I found Black Lion Yard that I was sure I had found Jack the Ripper. …" (my emphasis)

- Infection with syphilis, and a local address: What other assurances does one need ???

Scholarly !!!


pg. 217:
"The doorway where the Ripper threw his piece of apron would be the first open door he passed leaving Mitre Square."

- No amount of commentary could ever begin to address the absurdity of this statement !!!

Scholarly !!!


pg. 221:
Ref: The Times: "At about the time when the Mitre Square murder was being committed two of the extra men who had been put on duty were in Windsor Street, a thoroughfare about 300 yards off, …"

"The Times, was, as usual, hopelessly wrong in its East End topography. Windsor Street ran off the City Road, near Micawber Street, well over a mile away from Mitre Square. But Windsor Place (the only Windsor anywhere within striking distance of Whitechapel) ran of the Hoxton Road, and might be described (by The Times) as about 300 yards from … Finsbury Square."

Again:
"The Times, was, as usual, hopelessly wrong in its East End topography. …" (my emphasis)

"But Windsor Place (the only Windsor anywhere within striking distance of Whitechapel) …" (my emphasis)

- Windsor Street, St. Botolph Without Bishopsgate, was clearly marked on both the 1873 OS and 1894 OS; having been immediately south of Widegate Street, more-or-less behind the Bishopsgate Street Police Station. It was, according to Google Earth, approximately 494 yards (straight-line) north of Ripper's Corner.

Scholarly !!!


pg. 228:
"Swanson's notes were not one hundred percent accurate: there was no such place as 'Stepney Workhouse', though the term was sometimes used colloquially for St. George's-in-the-East in the 1880s."

Again:
"there was no such place as 'Stepney Workhouse', …"

- There most certainly was "such place as 'Stepney Workhouse'": Stepney Union Workhouse, St. Leonard's Street, Bromley St. Leonard

Again:
"though the term was sometimes used colloquially for St. George's-in-the-East in the 1880s."

- Pulling ridiculous notions out of one's aft end, does not lead to a "scholarly" assertion

Scholarly !!!


Colin

[Varqm]

Well martin's imperfection and all is still many times more important than what I I have read from you.

[Jeff Leahy]

What exactly is "scholarly training" ???

It must be quite precious, as Mr. Fido suggested in a recent episode of "Rippercast" ("The Ripper Scribes": 30-6-08) that he was "one of the few people who has been in this field with historical 'scholarly training'".

Hmmmmm !!!

Where can I get some "scholarly training"; or perhaps some "scholarly" examples to follow ???

"The Crimes, Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper", by Martin Fido
1993 Barnes & Noble Books

pg. 16:
"Monday 6 August 1888, and Martha Tabram, a fat prostitute in her late thirties, ..."

Again:
"a fat prostitute …"

Scholarly !!!


pg. 16:
"Complicated lists of nicknames, aliases and 'marital' names adopted from successions of common-law husbands abounded among the Whitechapel whores, ..."

Again:
"among the Whitechapel whores, …"

Scholarly !!!


pg. 216:
"Infection with syphilis proved an active sex-life among the local prostitutes: its incubation period is short, and local Jewish girls were totally implausible carriers."

Again:
"Infection with syphilis proved an active sex-life among the local prostitutes:…" (my emphasis)

Scholarly !!!


pg. 216:
"But it was when I found Black Lion Yard that I was sure I had found Jack the Ripper. This ran between Old Montague Street and … It was almost exactly at the centre point of the five murders."

Again:
"But it was when I found Black Lion Yard that I was sure I had found Jack the Ripper. …" (my emphasis)

- Infection with syphilis, and a local address: What other assurances does one need ???

Scholarly !!!


pg. 217:
"The doorway where the Ripper threw his piece of apron would be the first open door he passed leaving Mitre Square."

- No amount of commentary could ever begin to address the absurdity of this statement !!!

Scholarly !!!


pg. 221:
Ref: The Times: "At about the time when the Mitre Square murder was being committed two of the extra men who had been put on duty were in Windsor Street, a thoroughfare about 300 yards off, …"

"The Times, was, as usual, hopelessly wrong in its East End topography. Windsor Street ran off the City Road, near Micawber Street, well over a mile away from Mitre Square. But Windsor Place (the only Windsor anywhere within striking distance of Whitechapel) ran of the Hoxton Road, and might be described (by The Times) as about 300 yards from … Finsbury Square."

Again:
"The Times, was, as usual, hopelessly wrong in its East End topography. …" (my emphasis)

"But Windsor Place (the only Windsor anywhere within striking distance of Whitechapel) …" (my emphasis)

- Windsor Street, St. Botolph Without Bishopsgate, was clearly marked on both the 1873 OS and 1894 OS; having been immediately south of Widegate Street, more-or-less behind the Bishopsgate Street Police Station. It was, according to Google Earth, approximately 494 yards (straight-line) north of Ripper's Corner.

Scholarly !!!


pg. 228:
"Swanson's notes were not one hundred percent accurate: there was no such place as 'Stepney Workhouse', though the term was sometimes used colloquially for St. George's-in-the-East in the 1880s."

Again:
"there was no such place as 'Stepney Workhouse', …"

- There most certainly was "such place as 'Stepney Workhouse'": Stepney Union Workhouse, St. Leonard's Street, Bromley St. Leonard

Again:
"though the term was sometimes used colloquially for St. George's-in-the-East in the 1880s."

- Pulling ridiculous notions out of one's aft end, does not lead to a "scholarly" assertion

Scholarly !!!


Colin [ATTACH]2808[/ATTACH]

A great Historian, like a master chief, has many types of SOURCE materials to work from. Like a chiefs ingrediants some are good some not so good. A good hustorian sellects those Source materials and blends and bakes and mix's to create something with flavour.

Good history is interpretation of the FACTS and Source materials. Just presenting the accertained known facts is like dishing up a plate of raw Turnips.

Attacking Martin in this way is destroying what is a very important question.

Did Anderson Know the idenity of Jack the Ripper?

On this thread you have a valuable resource..two of the worlds leading authorities who have studied this question in depth...Martin and Stewart.

It would be nice for that debate to develop. Listen and learn. It is surely one of the most important questions facing modern Ripperologists. Especially given the work currently being done on Kosminski by Rob House.

Martin is one of the Greats in the field and probably the worlds leading expert on Anderson. Can we please treat the man with the respect he deserves.

Pirate