Did Anderson Know

[Natalie Severn]

Thats my understanding too Jeff. In fact it may be a symptom of the illness.
I am fine but I had that flu virus a few weeks ago and seem to have been a bit tired ever since.
Best
Norma

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jeff,

I won't do it I can assure you!..lol no offence...lol

best wishes

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

Well lets hope we all meet at John Bennett's talk, at next WS...

To be honest Phil its not you guys i'm worried about, its the raffle ticket sellers!!

Hope your better soon Nat

yours Jeff

[Hunter]

Don't knock it, Jon.

I'm so old that when I wake up in the morning I have to do it to get my heart to start beating. And how wonderful it is to have sex with someone you really love. Those police were a bit mean by tying Aaron's hands behind his back.

How uncool!

Not really Norma,

Its probably one of the few post on this thread that was a "definately ascertainable fact"

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

In his 1990 book "The Great Adventure: Male Desire and the Coming of World War One" author Michael C.C. Adams cites Sir Robert Anderson on the perils of self-abuse [aka The Stephen Thomas A.M. heart-starter].

Unfortunately, due to Google's annoying habit of not making available exactly the page you happen to be looking for, I cannot provide the reference. All I can say is that it was in a boys' magazine post-November 1901.



I seem to recall that Macnaghten was an Eton boy.

Regards,

Simon

[Jonathan H]

To Simon

What an absolutely delicious find!

You've practically solved the entire mystery!

[Trevor Marriott]

I think the former would be sexually insane as against criminally insane !

I would have thought that anyone masturbating to that degree would have no energy left to go out and kill

[Jeff Leahy]

I posted this yesterday but got into trouble so you will have to go to Wikki yourself.

However the point I was making is that you need to be careful using the term Paranoid Schizophrenia. Indeed many modern experts don’t think schizophrenia is the correct term and would like the illness separated into different ‘syndromes’. The problem is that there are often grey areas between them, that make it difficult to be specific and surprise surprise the experts can not agree. Paranoia is a symptom in many forms in the illness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

The following link gives more info about Paranoid Schizophrenia but it is a term to use with caution. http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/182/1/50

On the whole Schizophrenics have lower than average sex drive.

http://www.faqs.org/health/topics/19/Masturbation.html

Undoubtedly there are links with sexual miss function and schizophrenia

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/182/1/50

However masturbation in it self causes the schizophrenic little harm

“Reduced ability to experience pleasure, a lack of drive and initiative, an absence of close friends, neglect of personal hygiene, and inappropriate behavior—such as public masturbation or childlike silliness”

http://family.jrank.org/pages/1455/Schizophrenia-Nature-Schizophrenia.html

So its quite possible that Anderson witnessed Aaron masturbating during a psychotic episode but this behavior is unlikely to have continued in the asylum. By and large schizophrenics have low sex drives.

But the point Jon and Simon raise about Anderson reaction to that is interesting. Again it suggests to me that he did meet or observe Aaron Kosminski

Pirate

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Jeff,
Quite frankly I doubt very much that Aaron was doing anything of the kind "if/ when ,visited" by Anderson.
The "fantasy" if he had one happening at the time of the visit, would most likely have been broken by such a visit and by and large, patients would know perfectly well that such anti-social public behaviour was not tolerated.
The surviving notes on Aaron Kosminski are quite specific aren"t they.At no point is there any mention of him behaving, even remotely, in such an offensive way or even having masturbated,in either Colney Hatch or Leavesdon let alone in public.As I said previously, it was a member of his family or Jacob Cohen who reported that they thought Aaron had gone "insane" through a habit of masturbation.No mention in his records other than this first brief note, apparently given as an initial "explanation" by his family.
Best
Norma

[Jeff Leahy]

This is true Nat. However everything you have said is consistent with what is known about the early stages of schizophrenia. Ie inappropriate behavior and masturbating in public. Once placed in an asylum, and as the condition got progressively worse, it would be expected that the masturbation would stop.

What I think is being said hear that is interesting is that where this might be considered as fairly trivial today at that time Anderson may have made it mean more than it did? Especially if he actually witnessed such an act.

Trusting your feeling better

Pirate

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Jeff, yes I am feeling fine now---it lasted only a day or two but left a bit of tiredness-now nearly gone.

With regards to Anderson.I had no idea he was aware Aaron Kosminski existed ,earlier than the alleged "identification with difficulty" which most people think was some time after his admission to Colney Hatch in 1891.
So how could he have witnessed Aaron doing anything in public prior to this, since he did not, could not, have known of his existence prior to 1891? After February 1891 he was already "admitted" to an asylum and there isnt ONE SINGLE record of him -so far anyway,of ever having done any such thing in public?

The only thing we know for a fact is that Aaron Kosminski was walking his dog in Cheapside in November 1889----a year after Mary Kelly had been murdered .
And had he been given to " masturbating in public" which was witnessed by a policeman prior to his admission in 1891, it would, I am certain, have been recorded by that policeman and he would have been arrested for it .But there is NO RECORD of it Jeff.

[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks Jeff, yes I am feeling fine now---it lasted only a day or two but left a bit of tiredness-now nearly gone.

With regards to Anderson.I had no idea he was aware Aaron Kosminski existed ,earlier than the alleged "identification with difficulty" which most people think was some time after his admission to Colney Hatch in 1891.
So how could he have witnessed Aaron doing anything in public prior to this, since he did not, could not, have known of his existence prior to 1891? After February 1891 he was already "admitted" to an asylum and there isnt ONE SINGLE record of him -so far anyway,of ever having done any such thing in public?

The only thing we know for a fact is that Aaron Kosminski was walking his dog in Cheapside in November 1889----a year after Mary Kelly had been murdered .
And had he been given to " masturbating in public" which was witnessed by a policeman prior to his admission in 1891, it would, I am certain, have been recorded by that policeman and he would have been arrested for it .But there is NO RECORD of it Jeff.

If he had been found in those circumstances he would have more than likely been charged with "outraging public decency" which is a common law offence. However if he was arrested and then found to be mentally unstable likley as not he he could have been detained under some early mental health act and he never went to court.

[Natalie Severn]

Many Thanks Trevor.I thought that as an "ex-policeman" you might have been able to give us the information on that!
Best,
Norma

[Jeff Leahy]

There is off course one possibility when Anderson might have come across Aaron while in a psychotic attack. Shortly before he is put into the asylum.

And that would be at the Seaside home?

Pirate

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jeff,

Which Seaside Home?

Clarendon Villas or Portland Road? Both in Hove, Sussex.

Regards,

Simon