Did Anderson Know

[Natalie Severn]

But Phil, the image that begins to evolve makes your head spin. I mean are you saying Macnaghten, Anderson,Swanson, Abberline and Major Smith are all kicking up this great pile of dust ,blinding us from the truth by giving out a load of gobbledegook about the identity of JtR ?All singing from different song sheets in a cleverly orchestrated act of "DISINFORMATION" under the leadership of spymaster general ,Robert Anderson?

[Sox]

No, One of the best weapons the CID have, and still to this day use, is confusion and disinformation....whilst they get on with what they want to

Sorry Phil, but that really is pure nonsense.

[Phil Carter]

Sox,

Not according to good friend of mine of 45 years who has spent over 25 years in the CID it isn't. Especially in certain undercover operations.
There is an old saying... If you want to know the time, ask a policeman.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Norma,

What I am saying is this.
Disinformation must be looked upon within a context. Anderson knew, like every top man in the Met Police and the Government, that the political situation in the East End of London was a powder keg. It has been historically written about many, many times. Trafalgar Square, Balfour, The attempts on Queen Vic, the whole climate was very. very bad. Anarchists were baying for blood. The word revolution was in the air. And the centre of all of this was Whitechapel.

The Whitechapel murders were a fantastic excuse to pour hundreds of plain clothes/ ordinary coppers into the area. And guess who was being poured in right from the start? Pc's, detectives and the like from every status...with anti-Fenian backgrounds. Door to door searches to find a murderer? Oh yes, I can see it now.. No.23... here he is, hiding behind a knife.

I'm sorry, but reality here must be seen. The Whitechapel murders happened in a backdrop of serious political unrest. And there was a genuine fear of the government, the crown being threatened. That has been historically acknowledged.

So Anderson was the man to sort it out.

Imagine this Norma.

What would happen, say 10 years afterwards, if it ever came out that the real excuse for the inpouring WASN'T the Whitechapel murders?
The Victorians were KNOWN for their fear of losing the political clout. The crown? Revered. The Empire even? Sacrisanct.

best wishes, as always

Phil

[Sox]

Sox,

Not according to good friend of mine of 45 years who has spent over 25 years in the CID it isn't. Especially in certain undercover operations.
There is an old saying... If you want to know the time, ask a policeman.

best wishes

Phil

He lied to you, or you misunderstood what he was talking about. The Police would never keep back information from the public domain, if that information would help to catch a killer, OR warn the public about possible risks to themselves. Any 'cover up' would have to involve all the senior officers on the case and, as I said, that is just pure nonsense.

So yes, smokescreens happen. And the Whitechapel murders, I maintain, are riddled with them. Because common sense went out of the window in this case as soon as it started.

Let's get real here for a minute. The Whitechapel murders? they involved policemen in 1888 trying to catch a killer who left no clues other than one piece of torn apron on a pavement. Serial Killers in the twenty first century evade capture for years, sometimes even forever, and they evade police officers backed with all that modern science can offer.

I respect almost everyone's opinion Phil, but looking for smokescreens and conspiracy, where in reality there was only confusion, has blighted this case for decades now, and it got old a long time ago.

[robhouse]

Hi Natalie,

I don't see how that answers any of the questions I posed...

Rob H

[Phil Carter]

Sox,
I too respect all opinions.
The police would never keep back information from the public domain? Ummm... it was done in the Whitchapel murders. Inquest material witheld that could be useful to catch a killer, at the request of the police. That has been talked about in an earlier thread, ages ago.

Like I said, and will continue to say. You can throw away all the usual formulae for getting anywhere near the truth. It doesn't work. Proven. 121 years. Same old names, same old opinions, same old results. Dead end.

I am a realist. I do NOT and I will state this catagorically... I DO NOT believe in a world full of conspiracies. I am a rational, logical person. Laden with common sense and proud to say "horse-manure" to most every conspiration theory on most any subject.

But it happens. Not often. But it DOES happen. Smokescreens DO occur. Not often, but they do happen. Cover-ups occur. Policemen are bent. Not all of them, not always. But it happens. Politicians lie. Not always, but it happens.
People DO deliberately mislead for gainsake. Not often, but it happens (ask certain scrupulous authors on any controversial subject).

However, to blindly believe this is NOT a possibility just because it is JTR.. is in my honest opinion, unrealistic GIVEN the political situation, the location and the men in charge. It should, in my honest, feet on the ground, logical and rational opinion, be considered.

I AM NOT SAYING I AM RIGHT

I will bend to any argument that PROVES the opposite. I will willingly bow down and hold my hands up. But I will not just let the possibility of a smokescreen go harmlessly by.
You see, I don't give a tinkers cuss WHO JTR was. Or who caused what. I don't care if Anderson was a saint or a sinner. But I see what I see, and I read what I read. Based upon that, I give an opinion. It may well NOT toe the line. I don't care. And no amount of anyone putting me under pressure will change those opinions. Unless of course, I see a better, more logical way... that HASN'T been tried and tested before. So I say Anderson had other agendae.

And what is more, whoever disagrees, I will respect thier views, whilst not being of the same opinion.

as I ALWAYS write,
best wishes

Phil

[Sox]

I do not 'blindly' believe anything thanks. Fenian plotters involved in this case are the new 'Royals', the new 'Maybrick' or the new 'Sickert' they are ( and it pains me to say) the latest 'fashion' in this field of study.

But I know a sexual serial killer when I see one Phil. I have read the autopsy reports, seen the photographs, and you do not need any more evidence than that.

Now I defy you to show me exactly what information was kept from the public domain, that could have led to the capture of this killer, or information that would have led to members of the public being safer.

Anderson might well have drafted in any number of RUC men, he might well have sent them into Whitechapel, but to infer that those officers were to take part in a cover up,involving the Whitechapel murders, is laughable at best. The police wanted to catch this killer, they wanted vindication, even Anderson. For all you know, there could have been concurrent investigations running. The Whitechapel murders were not the only crimes happening in the East End.

[The Good Michael]

If y'all want to suggest that while the Whitechapel murders were going, police were investigating Irish dissidents and Jewish anarchists, and Anderson may have pulled some officers from Ireland in those directions, I'd say, "yeah, so what? That happens all the time." If anyone is trying to say that the Whitechapel murders were caused by rebels and anarchists, or that the police were committing the murders in order to place blame on them, or that the victims were connected to the Fenians and were being taught some kind of lesson, or that the victims were police informants that had to be taught a lesson by the Fenians; if any of those things are suggested, I'd suggest you were nuts. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.

Cheers,

Mike
Cheers,

[Sox]

Well this......

[London] Evening News, 9th October 1888—

DETECTIVES REINFORCED FROM DUBLIN.
The correspondent of the Irish Times states that a number of Irish constables have been withdrawn from Dublin for special duty in connection with the Whitechapel murders.

....makes perfect sense to me. IF you want to draft in a number of Irish Constables to help catch a Fenian plotter, then what do you tell the press if they get wind of it? Not really rocket science is it

[Stewart P Evans]

But...

If y'all want to suggest that while the Whitechapel murders were going, police were investigating Irish dissidents and Jewish anarchists, and Anderson may have pulled some officers from Ireland in those directions, I'd say, "yeah, so what? That happens all the time." If anyone is trying to say that the Whitechapel murders were caused by rebels and anarchists, or that the police were committing the murders in order to place blame on them, or that the victims were connected to the Fenians and were being taught some kind of lesson, or that the victims were police informants that had to be taught a lesson by the Fenians; if any of those things are suggested, I'd suggest you were nuts. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.
Cheers,
Mike
Cheers,

But...what about this reference believed to have been seen in the official files in the 1950s by Douglas G. Browne when researching for The Rise of Scotland Yard (1956) -

[Stewart P Evans]

And...

And...this entry from Queen Victoria's Journal dated 11 August 1888 -

[Stewart P Evans]

Crime Index

And this entry from the Scotland Yard Crime Index of the same period showing a file on the suggested complicity of the Irish Party -



It was investigated at the time and these three sources should be taken seriously, not lightly dismissed.

[Trevor Marriott]

Just to put the record straight it was Edward Jenkinson who was the goverment spymaster at the time who drafted in Irish officers to work undercover in London not specifically Whitechapel. Their brief was to try to infiltrate the Fenians. he drafted them in and disnt even tell Monro or Anderson they were operating in London.

The plot to assasinate Balfour was a fenian plan and nothing to do with the Whitechapel murders.

i keep having to say this but none of the officers at the time had any clue as to who the killer or killers were. That has been proved by the fcat that many years later they all came out and gave different suspect names. Monro and Littlechild worked togther so you would have thought that there suspect would be the same.

The fenians had their own agenda which included murder by bombings but not in the style of the Ripper.

The Crime index Stewart has shown is part of an early intelligence gathering sytem later know as a "collators syetem" to give an example if Pc Plod is on patrol and one of his residents stops him and tells him that he has heard that John Smith is out at night committing burgaries. The officer would then come back to the station and record it in writing and a file would be created for someone to either take it further of leave it on file. It doesn mean to say that the information given to the officer is accurate. The number by the side of the entries are the number given to the file. Obvioulsy not to much was done as their is only one file number for each entry.

It is fair to say that over the years just about everyone and everybody has been suggested as being repsonsible for the Ripper murders.

"The truth is still out there"

[The Good Michael]

Stewart,

If someone suggested that the Ripper was a Fenian, so be it. That is completely different than suggesting the murders were part of a Fenian plot. Jeffrey Dahmer was from the Church of Christ. Were his murders a Church of Christ plot? I don't think so.

Cheers,

Mike