Did Anderson Know

[Natalie Severn]

Rob,
With respect the symptoms we read about in the notes from his doctors and care workers over the years ,can just as easily be applied to those of a person suffering from dementia.While it is true that aggressive behaviour can be a symptom of dementia and Aaron's notes suggest one incident of aggressive behaviour ,there isnt a single reference or any sign whatever of the " violent psychosis"-past or present, which one might expect,if we are saying Aaron Kosminski was Jack the Ripper.
In actual fact,then as now,Aaron"s Leavesdon notes match -and to the letter- a case of dementia as described by his doctors.
Best
Norma

[Jeff Leahy]

Just to add to that, that Secondary Dementia seems to have been used to the condition modern psychiatrists refer to as ‘Burn Out’. This is a state where the patient becomes completely with drawn from reality and is unaware of what is happening around them.

http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/reprint/96/7/361.pdf

This paper has some interesting stuff. Not least that terms varied from asylum to asylum. By 1891 the term ‘Dementia praecox’ was sometimes used to infer patients suffering from symptoms similar to what we today call schizophrenia.

But in general the term Dementia meant something different in 1890’s to the way it is used today.

Pirate

[robhouse]

The diagnosis of secondary dementia came later... it is unclear when this change was made, but it was before 1910.

Aaron was initially classified as a "person of unsound mind" which was one of 3 legal classifications for insanity... the other two being "imbecile" and "lunatic". A review of asylum records by author David Wright concluded that the differentiation between lunatic and person of unsound mind “was murky and confusing,” and “it was not unusual for the terms ‘lunatic’ and ‘person of unsound mind’ to be used more or less interchangeably.”

The form of Aaron's disorder was listed as “mania.”

Aaron's symptoms are clearly indicative of schizophrenia, probably of the paranoid subtype.

[Natalie Severn]

Norma the term Schizophrenia was not coined until 1911.

Emil's thoughts were later disputed by many psychiatrists. One of these was Eugene Bleuler, an eminent Swiss psychiatrist, who, in 1911 found that the onset of the disease could in fact occur in the later years. He also reported that schizophrenia was not characterized by the progressive deterioration over the life of the patient, but rather that most patients, after an original severe deterioration, tend to stabilize and remain at the same point in their psychosis for extended periods of time. Bleuler also felt that in order to avoid any misunderstanding of the nature of the illness by the now obvious misnomer attached to it, the disease would be much better served if it was referred to as "schizophrenia." Bleuler invented the word by combining two Greek words meaning "split" and "mind." This emphasized a splitting apart of the patient's affective and cognitive functioning, which are heavily affected by the disease.

Pirate

With due respect Jeff,doctors were well aware of the progress of the illness that has been named schizophrenia whether or not it was named as such.That was why they began to perform leucotomies on certain very violent paranoid schizophrenics.
Doctors in 1894 would not have confused his case after 3 years of observation.

[Stewart P Evans]

Assumption

Preferably after reading what it actually says:
2 CAVENDISH SQUARE
W.
My dear Anderson,
I send you this line to ask you to see & hear the bearer, whose name is unknown to me. She has or thinks she has a knowledge of the author of the Whitechapel murders. The author is supposed to be nearly related to her, & she is in great fear lest any suspicions should attach to her & place her & her family in peril.
I have advised her to place the whole story before you, without giving you any names, so that you may form an opinion as to its being worth while to investigate.
Very sincerely yours,
Crawford
http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-emily.html

I presumed that everyone discussing it had read it, but don't tell me, on these boards I shouldn't have.

[Jeff Leahy]

Norma the term Schizophrenia was not coined until 1911.

Emil's thoughts were later disputed by many psychiatrists. One of these was Eugene Bleuler, an eminent Swiss psychiatrist, who, in 1911 found that the onset of the disease could in fact occur in the later years. He also reported that schizophrenia was not characterized by the progressive deterioration over the life of the patient, but rather that most patients, after an original severe deterioration, tend to stabilize and remain at the same point in their psychosis for extended periods of time. Bleuler also felt that in order to avoid any misunderstanding of the nature of the illness by the now obvious misnomer attached to it, the disease would be much better served if it was referred to as "schizophrenia." Bleuler invented the word by combining two Greek words meaning "split" and "mind." This emphasized a splitting apart of the patient's affective and cognitive functioning, which are heavily affected by the disease.

Pirate

[Stewart P Evans]

Think

No but people have connected Tumbelty to the Batty St Lodger and Rob House goes into the Batty Street Lodger in connection to Kosminski in some length in his podcast.
Pirate

Please think about what you are saying. We are talking about the Crawford letter here, not the suggestion that the Batty Street lodger may have been Tumblety.

[Stewart P Evans]

Accepted

Hi Stewart
If I have miss represented you then I apologize.
I thought you had raised the question of Andersons ‘memory’ in later years? And whether or not he had become forgetful?
Claiming ‘senility’ may be an exaggeration of your position, on my part.
However, I still think the Crawford letter, given Anderson theory, is more likely to refer to the Kosminski case than Druitt’s, though that is speculation on my part.
It is clear that Anderson was privi to information we no longer have.
Pirate

Apology accepted, I had noticed that you are prone to exaggeration.

Not only Anderson, but every police officer engaged on the case was privy to information we no longer have.

[Jeff Leahy]

No but people have connected Tumbelty to the Batty St Lodger and Rob House goes into the Batty Street Lodger in connection to Kosminski in some length in his podcast. My apology if I have not made myself clear, there.

Pirate

[Stewart P Evans]

Rubbish

...
As SPE has said, people discussing Druitt will claim the Crawford letter refers to Druitt, and of course people referring to the Batty Street Lodger will claim that it refers to Tumbelty. I am here speculating that they both refer to Aaron Kosminski because I believe that makes the most sense. But that is a long way from saying Aaron was Jack the Ripper. What I am saying is that of the various theories I have heard relating to people suggested the identity of Jack the Ripper.
...

Don't talk rubbish. No one has ever suggested that the 'Crawford letter' might refer to Tumblety - for a start he didn't have a sister in London to contact the police. I don't think that you think things through old chum.

[Jeff Leahy]

Much is made of Kosminski's threatening his sister with a knife (as an indication of possible violence in a man regarded as harmless) and this also is something that is made too much of. In my police service I attended hundreds of domestic disputes (and other disputes) and threatening someone with a knife is a very common aspect of domestic disputes, the usual knife employed being a kitchen knife. I have dealt with dozens of knife threats, even having to disarm a carving knife wielding housewife on one occason.

Fair point. It is a horror I endured once myself, when returning late from the pub

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Stewart

If I have miss represented you then I apologize.

I thought you had raised the question of Andersons ‘memory’ in later years? And whether or not he had become forgetful?

Claiming ‘senility’ may be an exaggeration of your position, on my part.

However, I still think the Crawford letter, given Anderson theory, is more likely to refer to the Kosminski case than Druitt’s, though that is speculation on my part.

It is clear that Anderson was privi to information we no longer have.

Pirate

[Stewart P Evans]

No Reason

...
Why is it that the other officers involved in the case seem to know nothing about Anderson’s claims if what he says is indeed true?
It does indeed seem somewhat puzzling. So The scenario I’m suggesting has some features that I like because they allow for and to some extent explain why other officers would have had little knowledge of the evident reported by Anderson and Swanson. But more importantly they explain why Anderson might have been so sure of himself in his belief that the killer was identified.
We know that Crawford introduced a ‘Sister’ to Anderson, I think it fair to speculate that she believed her brother to be Jack the Ripper. IS it not a feasibility therefore that Anderson would have asked Swanson to look into these claims on his behalf?
If that was indeed the case then it is indeed possible that only Swanson and Anderson would have been involved and had any knowledge of the events.
Add to this: we know that Aaron threatened his sister with a knife and that Aarons family were involved, like Crawford, in the Sweater system.
...

First there would be no reason at all for Anderson to keep such a thing secret from his fellow senior officers.

Macnaghten was Anderson's second-in-command in the CID, and his confidential assistant. The police chain of command was strictly adhered to and Macnaghten outranked Swanson. There is no way that Macnaghten could be cut out of the loop and this idea of a 'secret' known only to Anderson and Swanson is an old idea of Messrs Begg and Fido to try to get out of this problem. And, of course, the more you complicate it with a difficult to arrange identification (at an apparently remote location) and a positive identification as the Ripper the more fantastic the idea becomes.

Much is made of Kosminski's threatening his sister with a knife (as an indication of possible violence in a man regarded as harmless) and this also is something that is made too much of. In my police service I attended hundreds of domestic disputes (and other disputes) and threatening someone with a knife is a very common aspect of domestic disputes, the usual knife employed being a kitchen knife. I have dealt with dozens of knife threats, even having to disarm a carving knife wielding housewife on one occason.

[Natalie Severn]

Leavesdon Doctor"s diagnosis :Secondary Dementia

Jeff,
Sorry Jeff ,but its written in black and white in his hospital records that the doctors had diagnosed Aaron"s condition as DEMENTIA not schizophrenia!!!!!!!See following case note :

On April 19th 1894,three years after Aaron Kosminski had been sent to Colney Hatch ,he was transferred to Leavesdon ,his mental health, in line with the progressive nature of his illness having deteriorated.

The case register of the Male Admission Boook for Leavesdon Asylum 12a gives the following information:

Aaron Kosminski


NATURE OF ILLNESS: DEMENTIA

The Register of Patients ,Leavesdon
gives a similar medical diagnosis drawing attention to the advanced nature of the illness viz:

Date 1894

Name Aaron Kosminski
date of admission 19th April 1894

Parish: Mile End
Religion:Jew
Age on Admission- 29

MENTAL DIAGNOSIS - SECONDARY DEMENTIA

[Stewart P Evans]

Pointed Out

...
Firstly we have Simon Wood espousing a complicated scenario that involves conspiracy and cover up. Then we have SPE suggesting ineptitude and senility. And both going to considerable lengths to find small slithers of evidence that really reveal nothing that has not already been discussed at length by Paul Begg with regards to Sir Robert Anderson. And both arguments I simply do not buy.
...

I pointed out that objective historians researching Anderson have come to the conclusion he was inept as a 'spymaster'. Try as I may I can't find where I have suggested that he was senile.