The murder of Elizabeth Camp, 1897

[Jonathan H]

No worries, Deb

By the way, I think William Grant looked remarkably like Montague Druitt.

Alone again, naturally ...

To GUT

http://www.amazon.com/Jack-Ripper-Case-Solved-1891/dp/0786496762

[GUT]

No worries, Deb

By the way, I think William Grant looked remarkably like Montague Druitt.

Alone again, naturally ...

To GUT

http://www.amazon.com/Jack-Ripper-Ca.../dp/0786496762

Thank you, same date here or only Amazon.

I may have it in time for my little holiday in Oct.

[Debra A]

No worries, Deb

By the way, I think William Grant looked remarkably like Montague Druitt.

Alone again, naturally ...

To GUT

http://www.amazon.com/Jack-Ripper-Ca.../dp/0786496762

Ugghh...I never sent it did I? Sorry, Jonathon. I tried!

[Jonathan H]

To Debra

No, no - because of the flatness of email communication we keep talking apst each other.

The finder of the 1910 photo has kindly sent me a copy, under the stipulation that it not be rebraoadcast--which I have honoured.

In my opinion the picture of Grant, with his long face, sticky-out ears and low forehead broadly matches Druitt, especially if you allow for the passage of fifteen years. That was when in 1895 that a witness (probably Lawende) allegedly affirmed to this seaman suspect as the man he saw with Eddowes - arguably one of the origins of Sir Robert's memory malfunction of 1910 about a Jewish witness saying yes and yet it going nowhere. That witness identification, if it happened, was itself six or so years after he had seen the probable murderer. I had postulated that Grant must have been a lookalike for Druitt and the photo certainly points in that direction.

People here, including my sharp-eyed researcher who discovered a number of sources that prove Sir Melville was well-informed about his chief suspect, have also compared the photos and looked at me askance: as if I was mad, or having them on. Others have said that my severe visual impairmen has combined with a self-serving bias to propel me into a Grassy Knoll moment (e.g. tiny shadows and blurs in cheap polaroids become gun-men in the bushes).

I also think that a recently found picture of George Sims at 16, sans beard, that was discovered by Howard Brown on the other site also bears an astonishing likeness to Druitt.

http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=22556

[Mayerling]

Hi Debra,

I glad I bumped the thread back to life too. However, I am still aiming to see if I can find anything new regarding the death of Elizabeth Camp. And I would welcome anyone else who locates some information on purpose or by stumbling on it.

Hi Jonathan,

I looked at the Amazon site and the cover of the new book. It does have an interesting new photograph (colorized, of course) of Montie wearing a spoon billed derby hat. I suspect it is from his college or Winchester days.

Also looked at the pictures of Sims put up by Howard. He did look a bit like Montie in one showing him seated with his back to a desk or table. That beard of his (magnificent though it is) keeps throwing me. The thread from Howard also had two small pictures of Montie, a bit blurred probably because they were small and in the background. I'm sorry to say he looks a little smug.

Jeff

[Debra A]

To Debra

No, no - because of the flatness of email communication we keep talking apst each other.

The finder of the 1910 photo has kindly sent me a copy, under the stipulation that it not be rebraoadcast--which I have honoured.

In my opinion the picture of Grant, with his long face, sticky-out ears and low forehead broadly matches Druitt, especially if you allow for the passage of fifteen years. That was when in 1895 that a witness (probably Lawende) allegedly affirmed to this seaman suspect as the man he saw with Eddowes - arguably one of the origins of Sir Robert's memory malfunction of 1910 about a Jewish witness saying yes and yet it going nowhere. That witness identification, if it happened, was itself six or so years after he had seen the probable murderer. I had postulated that Grant must have been a lookalike for Druitt and the photo certainly points in that direction.

People here, including my sharp-eyed researcher who discovered a number of sources that prove Sir Melville was well-informed about his chief suspect, have also compared the photos and looked at me askance: as if I was mad, or having them on. Others have said that my severe visual impairmen has combined with a self-serving bias to propel me into a Grassy Knoll moment (e.g. tiny shadows and blurs in cheap polaroids become gun-men in the bushes).

I also think that a recently found picture of George Sims at 16, sans beard, that was discovered by Howard Brown on the other site also bears an astonishing likeness to Druitt.

http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=22556

Hi Jonathon
Oh,I'm glad to hear that it was sent to you by the finder!

I remember Grant being slight like Druitt appears to be in pictures, but apart from that I don't recall too much else of the Grant photograph apart from him being swamped by an enormous flasher's mac
I agree that the pic How found of Sims aged 16 looks very much like Druitt in the side by side photo comparison How did.

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

I glad I bumped the thread back to life too. However, I am still aiming to see if I can find anything new regarding the death of Elizabeth Camp. And I would welcome anyone else who locates some information on purpose or by stumbling on it.

Hi Jeff
I'll certainly keep an eye out for anything else. It is an interesting case.

[Mayerling]

I have been searching a bit, and have found some more on the Camp Case, although nothing I think is strong enough as a clue. I will be putting more of the specifics down tomorrow and Monday.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

New Zealand Herald, 24 April 1897, page 2

New Zealand Herald, Vol. XXXLV, Issue 10425, 24 April 1897, page 2:

"The Railroad Tragedy.

Miss Camp's Murderer Still at Large

The Myster surrounding the murder of Miss Elizabeth Camp on the South-Western Railway several months ago is to all intents and purposes as deep as ever. Despite the increasing efforts of the police, the author of the brutal tragedy is still at large and the probability of his capture grows more remote daily. The detectives, however, are working with unceasing energy, following up every clue that seems likely to be useful; but at present it looks very much as if they will have to acknowledge themselves beaten. Having disposed of the clue from Reading, which culminated in the arrest of the man Marshall in that town, the Scotland Yard authorities are now prosecuting inquiries in a direction which Inspector Marshall has some hopes may lead to satisfactory results. Very great energy is being displayed in endevouring to trace the movements of a suspected individual between five p.m. on the evening of the murder and one p.m. of the following day. Should this point be cleared up the police are of the opinion that there is a strong probability that the murderer will be discovered. The person indicated was in the vicinity of Hounslow on the day of Miss Camp's murder, and the following afternoon he turned up at a point many miles distant in a condition which showed that he had been tramping all night, and statements made while in his exhausted condition showed that he feared pursuit. He has been more reticent since, and efforts are now being made to discover where he spent the period between the hours mentioned above.

The following descriptions of the pestle with which the crime saw undoubtedly committed has been issued by the police: - A porcelain and wood pestle, 13 inches in length, circumference at head 8 1/2 inches, length of wooden handle 7 inches, and of porcelain head 5 inches. Stamped on the porcelain, about 1/3 inch from the handle is the figure nine. It has upon the porcelain a number of brass streaks, which suggest that it had been used at a brass work, probably for pounding in a brass morter."

[Mayerling]

Columnist, 12 March 1914, p.2

From "The Columnist, Volume LVI, issue 13415, 12 March 1914, P.2:

Article: "Murders on British Railways"

[This was an overview of all the best known railway related murders in Great Britain since 1864 (murder of Thomas Briggs by Franz Muller). it was written regarding the recent murder of Willie Starchfield in January 1914, whose body was found in a railway station - Starchfield's father John Starchfield was arrested, but identification collapsed so he was released. Although there were inquiries about Mrs. Starchfield, nothing really was ever discovered - that case is still unsolved. The following relates to the Camp Murder.]

"....In 1897 Elizabeth Camp was murdered between Hounslow and Waterloo, her head being battered in with a heavy wooden pestle. There were three very live clues, none of which, however, led anywhere. An old lover of Miss Camp, suspected of owning the pestle, and a medical men [sic] whose photograph was discovered in the victim's box, both disappeared after the crime and were never found."

[Mayerling]

Auckland Star, 12 May 1928, p.3

Auckland Star, Vol. LIX, issue iii, 12 May 1928, p.3:

"Train Murder.

Girl's Body Found Under Seat.

This articles mentions that 38 pounds were given by Elizabeth to her sister (whom she was visiting) at Hounslow, and she took 3 pounds for her own use in a small green purse. It mentions that the purse was found empty on the floor of the train.

"But the only other clue was a handkerchief bearing the name of "Camp" which was found in the speaking tube which connected with the kitchen at Waterloo Station."

"A young man named Arthur Marshall was arrested on suspicion. It was leaned that he had left his home on the morning of the murder and returned three days later. But there was nothing to connect him with the tragedy and he was discharged."

[Mayerling]

Wandgann Chronicle, Issue 20031, 14 March 1914, P.3

[Again an article spurred on by the Starchfield mystery. This may be from a common source as the other 1914 article, but I put down what I thought might be of interest.]

"Railway crimes.

"This crime will be known always as the "pestle" case.

"heavy wedgewood pestle"

"There were three very live clues, all of which, however, drew blank; and a former sweetheart easily cleared himself of suspicion. The remarkable part of the case was that two men whom the police were following up both completely disappeared -- on an old lover near King's Cross who was suspected of owning the pestle, and, who got wind of the police plans prematurely through the indiscretions of a reporter, and the other a medical man who's photograph was discovered in the victim's box. Miss Camp was a barmaid in Walworth, a typical "good sort" who had at one time been a hospital nurse...."

[Mayerling]

Brooklyn Eagle, Saturday, Sept. 25, 1897, p. 14

From a column "An Epidemic of Murder"

"The murder in a railway carriage of Miss Camp, in February [sic] last, the perpetrator of the crime not having been discovered, has been followed by another railway tragedy in which Mrs. Bryan, the wife of Dr. Bryan of Northampton has been killed."

[Mayerling]

New Zealand Herald, Vol XXXIV, Issue 10581, 23 October 1897

This article is not regarding Miss Camp, but is in reference to the second "railway" tragedy of 1897 mentioned in the Brooklyn Eagle.

A Dr. and Mrs. Bryan lived in Nottingham. He was a well established physician. He appears to have been elderly, while Mrs. Bryan was middle aged. Mrs. Bryan became acquainted with a young man who was a draughtsman, known as "Hal", and they apparently started a love affair. This became known to the Doctor, who tried to end it - and then Mrs. Bryan was found dead on some railway tracks 2 miles North of Tring in September 1897. It looked like an accident or suicide, but it might have been a homicide.

The story appears not to have had as much lasting impact as Ms Camp's.

Jeff