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  • Thanks for that, Stewart.

    A thoughtful reply.

    But we are slightly at cross-purposes because my argument was with Natalie, who I think somewhat misunderstands that history is a moving debate often with no final and absolute conclusions.

    I have never thought that your work is 'counter-productive'? [unlike say Cornwall whose historical fumbling deprived us of a superb Ripper novel with a painter as the fiend!]

    Years ago I used to carry 'The Lodger' everywhere I went as I was so attached to it, and enjoyed reading, and re-reading it to the point of obsession. This amused my friends who nicknamed me 'Dr T'.

    Crucially that book introduced me to Sims' writings about the 'Drowned Doctor' and from that my own beliefs about the Ripper began evolving in a fresh direction towards, perhaps ironically, a 'stale' suspect.

    Stewart, you [and a couple of others] have written, and co-written, books which I think elevated the Ripper subject to the level of academic study.

    Your own chapter 'Did Anderson Know' is a model of historical argument because yourself and Don Rumbelow so lucidly and elegantly weigh the pros and cons of the surviving sources. Yet the pair of you also make provisional judgments based on an informed opinion.

    That is why I use it with students -- right next to A J P Taylor and Niall Ferguson.

    As you know I adore Tom Cullen because of his leftist-driven, novelistic style. He made mistakes -- lots of them -- but he also made a case for Druitt that is essentially unsurpassed in its power [Odell called it 'bedazzling' though he did not really mean it as a compliment].

    Using a Marxist dialectic, Cullen gave thematic unity to a messy mystery.

    That it was practically inevitable that a deranged gentleman of the 'better classes' would kill the neglected dregs of Whitechapel and thus expose this criminal poverty beneath imperial splendor.

    Who gives a stuff if Macnaghten thought Druitt was a doctor when he was really a lawyer ..?

    Actually, I do -- and so do you.

    The creative approach -- which should not be done in isolation to the authenticity/veracity of a source -- is to ask what is the theme of a source; its meaning under the surface? The context which created it at all?

    For example, the surface claim of the Macnaghten Report, official version, is that Druitt is not a major suspect. You have made this point before, and it is a very strong one as it is an official Scotland Yard document.

    On the other hand, in this politically-driven document Macnaghten never concedes what we know from other sources; that the problem with Druitt was not a lack of proof -- or even the lack of its 'shadow'.

    Rather that Druitt had been dead for years BEFORE police ever knew about him in connection with the Whitechapel murders. This was an embarrassment Mac discreetly buries in that document.

    Once I realized what Macnaghten was doing, the other sources began to fall into place too.

    Therefore, for me the Ripper mystery is not the identity of the fiend. Macnaghten solved that, or else he would never in a million years have accused a fellow Gentile gentleman.

    The mystery inside the mystery was why knowledge of the chief suspect's identity was so limited, fragmentary, and fictitious?

    In a nutshell, it is because the suicided Druitt was a too-late suspect who came to Macnaghten's attention outside normal police channels. Furthermore he was a from a Tory family, learned about by a Tory MP, whilst the Liberals were in power.

    It was a potential debacle which needed not a cop, or any kind of investigator, but a smooth operator from the upper bourgoisie to avoid ridicule and ruination. Macnaghten was the right man to be at the epicenter of all this, and later to pull the strings behind crony-puppets Griffiths and Sims -- and to quash the vain, stubborn, exaggerated notions of Anderson the insufferable.

    We see only the tiniest tip of this much larger iceberg, the real Jack the Ripper story, forever veiled from us.

    Macnaghten's memoirs mostly concede the truth; that the police were never chasing the un-named Druitt in 1888, that he was years dead before they learned of his existence. Nor was he the subject of a definitive Home Office Report, nor was he sighted by any witness, he had never been in an asylum, and that he was the only serious 'suspect'.

    That's one, always provisional, interpretation anyhow ...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
      [B]
      Jonathon I remember suggesting that Stewart discuss an issue on podcast. I cant remember the exact details, as you say it was some time ago. However I distinctly remember you asking me NOT to make these suggestions and refrain from using ‘podacst’ in any argument. This I duely apologuized about and have refrained from doing so, out of respect to you, ever since.
      Oh yeah, now I remember. On some unrelated thread you tastelessly and off-topically kept badgering SPE to appear on my podcast (like you are now doing with your film), so I asked you to stop.

      JM
      Last edited by jmenges; 04-11-2010, 04:28 PM.

      Comment


      • Jonathan"s version of History = death by WAFFLE!

        Jonathan,

        I am afraid its you who is intent on rewriting history in the form of death by waffle , with a supporting cast of senior police officers making things up as they go along!

        Whose version of history are you talking about anyway ? Is it just Robert Anderson"s and Melville Macnaghten"s version of history ? Or is it that of the wider community of Jewish and Irish Immigrants of Whitechapel ? Whose version I ask you?

        You seem to have lost your way in the jungles of Ripperology Jonathan.We are not dealing here with the wishful thinking of a handful of high ranking police officials, we are dealing with the murder and mutilation of at least five women in succession.What about their history" [Or as feminists now entitle it "herstory".So can we please now attend to the actual wording of the documents we possess which may yet lead us to some understanding of who killed them, rather than inventing a sub text for them that bears no relationship to what was written!

        Norma
        Last edited by Natalie Severn; 04-11-2010, 05:35 PM.

        Comment


        • Hi Jeff,

          So the idea of a conspiracy doesn't hold water? You should try telling that to the family of Alfred Dreyfus who in the 1890s was sentenced to life imprisonment for treason on the basis of a mistake and an ensuing government cover-up involving suppressed evidence, lies, fabricated memos and official obfuscation. Happily, in the end, the truth set him free.

          Your solution is neither simple nor logical. In fact your belief that Anderson wouldn't lie about his Polish Jew suspect is downright dangerous. A man [presumably Kosminski] is being condemned to eternal damnation on the strength of no evidence whatsoever plus the opinion of Martin Fido, with the agreement of Paul Begg, as to Anderson's veracity. Thus he spake and thus shall his word be the truth. This Star Chamber justice of yours is a conspiracy within itself, so be careful where you're pointing Occam's Razor. You could do yourself a nasty injury.

          There is obviously a lot in the available historical record which we "anti-Andersonites" have overlooked or failed to intellectualize, so as you appear to have assumed the role of Defender of the Faith perhaps you would be so good as to explain the real reason why Anderson's utter truthfulness is being so staunchly defended when there are so many examples of him being less than candid. Also, the real reason why has he been exalted to such dizzying heights of sanctity when it is clear that many of his contemporaries held him in low esteem.

          Regards,

          Simon
          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jmenges View Post
            Oh yeah, now I remember. On some unrelated thread you tastelessly and off-topically kept badgering SPE to appear on my podcast (like you are now doing with your film), so I asked you to stop.

            JM
            Excellent. Then we have agreed on the basic Facts. (Apart from the FACT that I offered a DVD release discussing Anderson.)

            and also established that there are open, honest platforms for debate, should either party choose to do so.

            Pirate
            Last edited by Jeff Leahy; 04-11-2010, 06:43 PM.

            Comment


            • Paul Begg has known of my feelings and concerns for many years, and we have discussed them. The answer from him is that he simply sees nothing wrong in what he has written and any fault is on my part for failing to understand the position and the nature of history and its interpretation. We have seen him publicly state that the only person who has properly studied Anderson, and is thus entitled to draw a proper conclusion as to his character and nature, is Martin Fido. How can you argue with logic like that?

              What has been said – and said by Martin Fido, not Paul Begg – is that Anderson would not have lied for personal kudos.

              What I believe Begg is claiming is that ‘If you disagree with that assessment you need to challenge the reasoning on which Martin Fido based his conclusion.’

              The situation was exacerbated by what I considered to be an amazing attempt by Paul Begg to address criticisms of Anderson and the Kosminski theory in his article in issue 100 of Ripperologist. This was followed by an appallingly bad anonymous review of the new edition of The Man Who Hunted Jack the Ripper by Nick Connell and myself, in Ripperologist. The review was obviously written by Paul Begg, a fact which he later confirmed.

              What has this to do with anything? It is completely irrelevant. You didn’t agree with a review? Who ever does?

              I had an email exchange with him over this review and he could see nothing wrong with what he had written and dismissed my complaint. I must leave the intelligent reader of both the review and our book to decide if his review was appropriate and justified. Add to this the fact that certain emails have come to my attention in which he is less than complimentary about me, I felt rather uncomfortable.

              At least he doesn’t come on a public message washing his laundry in public and calling your objectivity into question. It appears that he had the courtesy to reply to your email. I would imagine you got a frank and honest reply from a man I’ve only ever heard say good things about you and your work.

              I have no wish at all to drag certain personal issues into a public forum, but let me just say that all that is ever seen here is the tip of the iceberg. I also know, and appreciate, how ill Paul Begg is, and has been, and there is no way that I would intentionally seek to aggravate his condition. And it is for this reason that I feel that I should now refrain from further adverse comment about him. On a personal level, and Ripper nonsense aside, I wish him the very best for a speedy recovery and a return to better health.

              Yes this is true Paul has been very ill, which is why I find any personal attack on my dear friend, out of order. I’m certainly not going to sit back and let people take pops at him, miss-quote him and take him out of context and not speak up in his defense?

              As for 'Pirate', I consider him puerile, ill-informed, lacking in social grace and parasitic (in relation to Paul). There is no way I shall ever 'perform' for him and I consider any discussion about that close

              I find this level of personal abuse frankly somewhat childish and disappointing in an author who I hold in such high regard.

              However the points I raised on this thread with regard to Begg’s position were FACTually correct ‘ it would appear that, as I claimed, Anderson never called a press conference’ So if I am indeed ill-informed I appear to be knocking up a fairly good batting average.

              All the best

              Pirate

              PS I accept the ‘lacking in social grace’ allegation I’m simply interested in getting at the truth. And Anderson it would seem is indeed a complex character.

              Comment


              • Hi Jeff,

                So the idea of a conspiracy doesn't hold water? You should try telling that to the family of Alfred Dreyfus who in the 1890s was sentenced to life imprisonment for treason on the basis of a mistake and an ensuing government cover-up involving suppressed evidence, lies, fabricated memos and official obfuscation. Happily, in the end, the truth set him free.


                Yes I know the story well. Free as a Butterfly.

                Your solution is neither simple nor logical. In fact your belief that Anderson wouldn't lie about his Polish Jew suspect is downright dangerous. A man [presumably Kosminski] is being condemned to eternal damnation on the strength of no evidence whatsoever plus the opinion of Martin Fido, with the agreement of Paul Begg, as to Anderson's veracity. Thus he spake and thus shall his word be the truth. This Star Chamber justice of yours is a conspiracy within itself, so be careful where you're pointing Occam's Razor. You could do yourself a nasty injury.

                Martin Fido’s accessment of Anderson's character is that he would not have lied for personal Kudos. The ‘anti Anderson camp’ (he says tongue in cheek) need to challenge the reasoning on which Martin Fido drew his conclusion. Ie From his analysis of Andersons writing and theological works.

                There is obviously a lot in the available historical record which we "anti-Andersonites" have overlooked or failed to intellectualize, so as you appear to have assumed the role of Defender of the Faith perhaps you would be so good as to explain the real reason why Anderson's utter truthfulness is being so staunchly defended when there are so many examples of him being less than candid. Also, the real reason why has he been exalted to such dizzying heights of sanctity when it is clear that many of his contemporaries held him in low esteem.

                Regards, Simon


                Blimey you make me sound rather important ‘Defender of the faith’?

                Actually the only cause I will defend is an 'independent' Ireland.

                Like Jonathon I am prepared to except that Anderson got it wrong or made a mistake. It just dosn’t seem logical that he would have told such a great big whooper if he genuinely didn’t believe what he was saying was the truth.

                I’m afraid that is simply gut instinct on my part and my personal opinion.

                You’ll have to challenge Martin Fido not me if you wish to try and prove your case to a wider audience.

                Pirate

                Comment


                • Hi Jeff,

                  Maybe you should get Martin on your DVD to explain the fuzzy logic behind his pronouncement on Anderson.

                  I'd be your first customer.

                  Regards,

                  Simon
                  Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                  Comment


                  • More the merry'er are you listening Martin?

                    Comment


                    • Here We Go...

                      Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                      Paul Begg has known of my feelings and concerns for many years, and we have discussed them. The answer from him is that he simply sees nothing wrong in what he has written and any fault is on my part for failing to understand the position and the nature of history and its interpretation. We have seen him publicly state that the only person who has properly studied Anderson, and is thus entitled to draw a proper conclusion as to his character and nature, is Martin Fido. How can you argue with logic like that?
                      What has been said – and said by Martin Fido, not Paul Begg – is that Anderson would not have lied for personal kudos.
                      What I believe Begg is claiming is that ‘If you disagree with that assessment you need to challenge the reasoning on which Martin Fido based his conclusion.’
                      ...
                      And here we go again. Please note who started this round.

                      How disingenuos of you. Please check your hero's books. His way around direct criticism is to quote Fido, thus he can say 'well Martin said it not I.' But Martin's pronouncement's are reproduced verbatim in Begg's books in support of his saintly status.

                      You obviously do not read the available material, it's pretty obvious that many people have challenged Fido's flawed reasoning.
                      SPE

                      Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                      Comment


                      • Idiotic

                        Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                        [B]...
                        The situation was exacerbated by what I considered to be an amazing attempt by Paul Begg to address criticisms of Anderson and the Kosminski theory in his article in issue 100 of Ripperologist. This was followed by an appallingly bad anonymous review of the new edition of The Man Who Hunted Jack the Ripper by Nick Connell and myself, in Ripperologist. The review was obviously written by Paul Begg, a fact which he later confirmed.
                        What has this to do with anything? It is completely irrelevant. You didn’t agree with a review? Who ever does?
                        ...
                        What an absolutely idiotic response. It's pointless debating with the likes of you. I've yet to find anyone who agrees with Begg's review of The Man Who Hunted Jack the Ripper.
                        SPE

                        Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                        Comment


                        • Nor Do I...

                          Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                          ...
                          I had an email exchange with him over this review and he could see nothing wrong with what he had written and dismissed my complaint. I must leave the intelligent reader of both the review and our book to decide if his review was appropriate and justified. Add to this the fact that certain emails have come to my attention in which he is less than complimentary about me, I felt rather uncomfortable.
                          At least he doesn’t come on a public message washing his laundry in public and calling your objectivity into question. It appears that he had the courtesy to reply to your email. I would imagine you got a frank and honest reply from a man I’ve only ever heard say good things about you and your work.
                          ...
                          Nor do I, I am addressing snide comments and derogatory remarks he has made about me in emails to other people, against which I otherwise have no redress. He gave an anonymous, bad review of the work by Nick Connell and myself in his magazine. That is public knowledge.
                          SPE

                          Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                          Comment


                          • Clue

                            Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                            I have no wish at all to drag certain personal issues into a public forum, but let me just say that all that is ever seen here is the tip of the iceberg. I also know, and appreciate, how ill Paul Begg is, and has been, and there is no way that I would intentionally seek to aggravate his condition. And it is for this reason that I feel that I should now refrain from further adverse comment about him. On a personal level, and Ripper nonsense aside, I wish him the very best for a speedy recovery and a return to better health.
                            Yes this is true Paul has been very ill, which is why I find any personal attack on my dear friend, out of order. I’m certainly not going to sit back and let people take pops at him, miss-quote him and take him out of context and not speak up in his defense?
                            ...
                            It would help if you had some sort of clue as to what you are talking about. Your crass conduct is what resulted in these posts. I don't give a monkey's toss what you find 'out of order' and I have not mis-quoted him. I have a lot more ammunition in the locker if you are ready for it.
                            Last edited by Stewart P Evans; 04-11-2010, 08:49 PM.
                            SPE

                            Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                            Comment


                            • Fact

                              Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                              ...
                              As for 'Pirate', I consider him puerile, ill-informed, lacking in social grace and parasitic (in relation to Paul). There is no way I shall ever 'perform' for him and I consider any discussion about that close
                              I find this level of personal abuse frankly somewhat childish and disappointing in an author who I hold in such high regard.
                              ...
                              Pirate
                              It's not personal abuse - it's fact. And many agree with me. I really don't give a fig what you think of me, I'd rather have no contact or debate with you at all.
                              SPE

                              Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                              Comment


                              • Since When?

                                Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                                ...
                                However the points I raised on this thread with regard to Begg’s position were FACTually correct ‘ it would appear that, as I claimed, Anderson never called a press conference’ So if I am indeed ill-informed I appear to be knocking up a fairly good batting average.
                                ...
                                PS I accept the ‘lacking in social grace’ allegation I’m simply interested in getting at the truth. And Anderson it would seem is indeed a complex character.
                                Since when was the subject of this thread about Anderson calling a press conference? As far as I'm concerned you were out for a duck ages ago. Furthermore, don't keep inanely repeating yourself.
                                SPE

                                Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                                Comment

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